Sunday, December 30, 2012

Vijayanagar negationism



                In several articles and speeches since at least 2004 (“Trapped in the ruins”, The Guardian, 20 March 2004), and especially in the commotion provoked by Girish Karnad’s speech in Mumbai (autumn 2012), William Dalrymple has condemned Nobel prize winner V.S. Naipaul for writing that the Vijayanagar empire was a Hindu bastion besieged by Muslim states. The famous writer has taken the ruins of vast Vijayanagar as illustration of how Hinduism is a “wounded civilization”, viz. wounded by Islam. Dalrymple’s counter-arguments against this conflictual view of Indian history consist in bits of Islamic influence in the Vijayanagar kings’ court life, such as Hindu courtiers wearing Muslim dress, Hindu armies adopting techniques borrowed from the Muslims, styles of palace architecture and the Persian nomenclature of political functions; and conversely, elements of Hinduism in Muslims courts and households, e.g. the Muslim festival of Muharram looking like the Kumbha Mela of the Hindus.

 

Secularism and Vijayanagar

                As is all too common in Nehruvian-secularist discourse, Dalrymple’s analysis of the role of Islam in India stands out by its superficiality. Whenever a Hindu temple or a Muslim festival is found to employ personnel belonging to the opposite religion, secular journalists go gaga and report on this victory of syncretism over religious orthodoxy. Secular historians including Dalrymple do likewise about religious cross-pollination in the past.

                It is true that Hindus are eager to integrate foreign elements from their surroundings, from Hellenistic astrology (now mis-termed “Vedic astrology”) in the past to the English language and American consumerism today. So Hindu courts adopted styles and terminology from their Muslim counterparts. They even enlisted Muslim mercenaries in their armies, so “secular” were they. We could say that Hindus are multicultural at heart, or open-minded. But that quality didn’t get rewarded, except with a betrayal by their Muslim regiments during the battle of Talikota (1565): they defected to the enemy, in which they recognized fellow-Muslims. When the chips were down, Hindu open-mindedness and syncretism were powerless against their heartfelt belief in Islamic solidarity. In September 2012, Dalrymple went to Hyderabad to praise the city and its erstwhile Muslim dynasty as a centre of Hindu-Muslim syncretism; but fact is that after Partition, the ruler of Hyderabad opted for Pakistan, against multicultural India. When the chips are down, secular superficiality is no match for hard-headed orthodoxy.

                Muslims too sometimes adopted Hindu elements. However, it would be unhistorical to assume a symmetry with what the Hindus did. Hindus really adopted foreign elements, but most Muslims largely just retained Hindu elements which had always been part of their culture and which lingered on after conversion. Thus, the Pakistanis held it against the Bengalis in their artificial Muslim state (1947-71) that their language was very Sanskritic, not using the Arabic script, and that their womenfolk “still” wore saris and no veils. The Bengali Muslims did this not because they had “adopted” elements from Hinduism, but because they had retained many elements from the Hindu culture of their forefathers. “Pakistan” means the “land of the pure”, i.e. those who have overcome the taints of Paganism, the very syncretism which Dalrymple celebrates. Maybe it is in the fitness of things that a historian should sing paeans to this religious syncretism for, as far as Islam is concerned, it is a thing of the past.

                A second difference between Hindus and Muslims practicing syncretism is that in the case of Muslims, this practice was in spite of their religion, due to a hasty (and therefore incomplete) conversion under duress and a lack of sufficient policing by proper Islamic authorities. If, as claimed by Dalrymple, a Sultan of Bijapur venerated both goddess Saraswati and prophet Mohammed, it only proves that he hadn’t interiorized Mohammed’s strictures against idolatry yet. In more recent times, though, this condition has largely been remedied. Secular journalists now have to search hard for cases of Muslims caught doing Hindu things, for such Muslims become rare. Modern methods of education and social control have wiped out most traces of Hinduism. Thus, since their independence, the Bengali Muslims have made great strides in de-hinduizing themselves, as by widely adopting proper Islamic dress codes. The Tabligh (“propaganda”) movement as well as informal efforts by clerics everywhere have gone a long way to “islamize the Muslims”, i.e. to destroy all remnants of Hinduism still lingering among them.

               

Hindu iconoclasm?

                Another unhistorical item in the secular view of Islam in India is the total absence of an Islamic prehistory outside India. Yet, all Muslims know about this history to some extent and base their laws and actions upon it. In particular, they know about Mohammed’s career in Arabia and seek to replicate it, from wearing “the beard of the Prophet” to emulating his campaigns against Paganism.

Dalrymple, like all Nehruvians, makes much of the work of the American Marxist historian Richard Eaton. This man is famous for saying that the Muslims have indeed destroyed many Hindu temples (thousands, according to his very incomplete list, though grouped as the oft-quoted “eighty”), but that they based themselves for this conduct on Hindu precedent. Indeed, he has found a handful of cases of Hindu conquerors “looting” temples belonging to the defeated kings, typically abducting the main idol to install it in their own capital. This implies a very superficial equating between stealing an idol (but leaving the worship of the god concerned intact, and even continuing it in another temple) and destroying temples as a  way of humiliating and ultimately destroying their religion itself. But we already said that secularists are superficial. However, he forgets to tell his readers that he has found no case at all of a Muslim temple-destroyer citing these alleged Hindu precedents. If they try to justify their conduct, it is by citing Mohammed’s Arab precedents. The most famous case is the Kaaba in Mecca, where the Prophet and his nephew Ali destroyed 360 idols with their own hands. What the Muslims did to Vijayanagar was only an imitation of what the Prophet had done so many times in Arabia, only on a much larger scale.

From historians like Eaton and Dalrymple, we expect a more international view of history than what they offer in their account of Islamic destructions in India. They try to confine their explanations to one country, whereas Islam is globalist par excellence. By contrast, Naipaul does reckon with international cultural processes, in particular the impact of Islam among the converted peoples, not only in South but also in West and Southeast Asia. He observes that they have been estranged from themselves, alienated from their roots, and therefore suffering from a neurosis.

So, Naipaul is right and Dalrymple wrong in their respective assessments of the role of Islam in India. Yet, in one respect, Naipaul is indeed mistaken. In his books Among the Believers and Beyond Belief, he analyses the impact of Islam among the non-Arab converts, but assumes that for Arabs, Islam is more natural. True, the Arabs did not have to adopt a foreign language for religious purposes, they did not have to sacrifice their own national traditions in name-giving; but otherwise they too had to adopt a religion that wasn’t theirs. The Arabs were Pagans who worshipped many gods and tolerated many religions (Jews, Zoroastrians, various Christian Churches) in their midst. Mohammed made it his life’s work to destroy their multicultural society and replace it with a homogeneous Islamic one. Not exactly the syncretism which Dalrymple waxes so eloquent about.

 

Colonial “Orientalism”?

                Did Muslims “contribute” to Indian culture, as Dalrymple claims? Here too, we should distinguish between what Islam enjoins and what people who happen to be Muslims do. Thus, he says that Muslims contributed to Indian music. I am quite illiterate on art history, but I’ll take his word for it. However, if they did, they did it is spite of Islam, and not because of it. Mohammed closed his ears not to hear the music, and orthodox rulers like Aurangzeb and Ayatollah Khomeini issued measures against it. Likewise, the Moghul school of painting shows that human beings are inexorably fond of visual art, but does not disprove that Islam frowns on it.

Also, while some tourists fall for the Taj Mahal, which Naipaul so dislikes, the Indo-Saracenic architecture extant does not nullify the destruction of many more beautiful buildings which could have attracted far more tourists. In what sense is it a “contribution” anyway? Rather than filling a void, it is at best a replacement of existing Hindu architecture with new Muslim architecture. Similarly, if no Muslim music (or rather, music by Muslims) had entered India, then native Hindu music would have flourished more, and who is Dalrymple to say that Hindu music is inferior?                 

Another discursive strategy of the secularists, applied here by Dalrymple, is to blame the colonial view of history. Naipaul is said to be inspired by colonial Orientalists and to merely repeat their findings. This plays on the strong anti-Westernism among Indians. But it is factually incorrect: Naipaul cites earlier sources (e.g. Dalrymple omits Ibn Battuta, the Moroccan traveler who only described witnessed Sultanate cruelty to the Hindus with his own eyes) as well as the findings of contemporaneous archaeologists. Moreover, even the colonial historians only repeat what older native sources tell them. The destruction of Vijayanagar is a historical fact and an event that took place with no colonizers around. Unless you mean the Muslim rulers.

 

Negationism

In the West, we are familiar with the phenomenon of Holocaust negationism. While most people firmly disbelieve the negationists, some will at least appreciate their character: they are making a lot of financial, social and professional sacrifices for their beliefs. The ostracism they suffer is fierce. Even those who are skeptical of their position agree that negationists at least have the courage of their conviction.

In India, and increasingly also in the West and in international institutions, we are faced with a similar phenomenon, viz. Jihad negationism. This is the denial of aggression and atrocities motivated by Islam. Among the differences, we note those in social position of the deniers and those in the contents of the denial. Jihad deniers are not marginals who have sacrificed a career to their convictions, on the contrary; they serve their careers greatly by uttering the politically palatable “truth”. In India, any zero can become a celebrity overnight by publishing a condemnation of the “communalists” and taking a stand for Jihad denial and history distortion. The universities are full of them, while people who stand by genuine history are kept out. Like Jawaharlal Nehru, most of these negationists hold forth on the higher humbug (as historian Paul Johnson observed) and declare themselves “secular”.

Whereas the Holocaust lasted only four years and took place in war circumstances and largely in secret (historians are still troubled over the absence of an order by Adolf Hitler for the Holocaust, a fact which gives a handle to the deniers), Jihad started during the life of Mohammed and continues till today, entirely openly, proudly testified by the perpetrators themselves. From the biography and the biographical collections of the Prophet (Sira, Ahadith) through medieval chronicles and travel diaries down to the farewell letters or videos left by hundreds of suicide terrorists today, there are literally thousands of sources by Muslims attesting that Islam made them do it. But whereas I take Muslims seriously and believe them at their word when they explain their motivation, some people overrule this manifold testimony and decide that the Muslims concerned meant something else. 

The most favoured explanation is that British colonialism and now American imperialism inflicted poverty on them and this made them do it, though they clothed it in Islamic discourse. You see, the billionaire Osama bin Laden, whose family has a long-standing friendship with the Bush family, was so poor that he saw no option but to hijack some airplanes and fly them into the World Trade Center. What else was he to do? And Mohammed, way back in the 7th century, already the ruler of Medina and much of the Arabian peninsula, just had to have his critics murdered or, as soon as he could afford it, formally executed. He had to take hostages and permit his men to rape them; nay, he just had to force the Jewish woman Rayhana into concubinage after murdering her relatives. If you don’t like what he did, blame Britain and America. Their colonialism and imperialism made him do it! Under the colonial dispensation which didn’t exist yet, he Muslim troops who were paid by the Vijayanagar emperor had no other option but to betray their employer and side with his opponents who, just by coincidence, happened to be Muslim as well. And if you don’t believe this, the secularists will come up with another story.

 

Conclusion

India is experiencing a regime of history denial. In this sense, the West is more and more becoming like India. There are some old professors of Islam or religion (and I know a few) who hold the historical view, viz. that Mohammed (if he existed at all) was mentally afflicted, that Islam consists of a manifold folie à deux (“madness with two”, where a wife supports and increasingly shares her husband’s self-delusion), and that it always was a political religion which spread by destroying other religions. But among the younger professors, it is hard to find any who are so forthright. There is a demand for reassurance about Islam, and universities only recruit personnel who provide that. Indeed, many teach false history in good faith, thinking that untruth about the past in this case is defensible because it fosters better interreligious relations in the present. Some even believe their own stories, just like the layman who is meant to lap them up. Such is also my impression of William Dalrymple.


 

 

70 comments:

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi,

QUOTE- It is true that Hindus are eager to integrate foreign elements from their surroundings, from Hellenistic astrology (now mis-termed “Vedic astrology”)UNQUOTE.

NONSENSE!

plato and pythogaras were students in india-- the reason why alexander the great, came here to check out.

alexander was sent back to greece with his tail between his legs- nobody cares for dubious western history any more.

punch into google search-

ALEXANDER THE GREAT AND KING PORUS -VADAKAYIL

capt ajit vadakayil
..

ysv_rao said...

Im afraid I have to agree with Captain Ajay.

It is true that Hindus borrowed quite a bit from Greek astrology, indeed Hindus were of the opinion that had it not been for astronomy/astrology the Greeks wouldve been barbarians.Clearly the Hindus were less than interested in Socrates,Aristotle ,Plato and what have you!

Constellations,stars, planets eclipses etc were discovered and named as early as the Ramayana.

The Greeks may have contributed some additional findings and nomenclature but they were complementing rather than creating Hindu astronomy!

As for Vijayanagar, I agree there is negationism that may have have more to do with the genesis and founding and the Vijayanagar legend.
The two princes Harihara and Bukka Raya were captured by a Muslim general and taken to taken to Delhi where they were converted to Islam and appointed governers in the region from where they originated(Eastern Karnatak and Central Andhra).Upon encoutering the Brahmin scholar Vidyaranya ,he inspired to revert to the original faith and carry forward the banner of Hindu dharma.they henceforth rebelled and founded Vijayanagar kingdom as a bullwark against Islam itself.
Later Hindu emperors of Vijayanagar much like later Marathas lost the sense of mission and became increasingly syncretic and hired Muslim generals and troops.And Talikota proved what a folly that had been.

The problem therefore is not so much Talikota and the defeat and destruction of Vijayanagar but the uncomfortable notions (to secular historians)

1.Muslim converts reverted to Hinduism
2.The so called reactionary Brahmin caste facilitated 1.BTW Dr. Elst this contradicts your previous claim that Brahmins refused to accept Islamic converts back into the Hindu fold.
3.they founded Vijayanagar as a defense of Hinduism against Islam.

I think VS Naipaul, Girish Karnad and Dalrymple all miss the forest for the trees.

Pro Hindu historians would be on much stronger ground when the bring up the very notion of the foundation of Vijayanagar.

The wanton destruction of Vijayanagar will be dismissed by secular historians not as jihad but "boys will be boys" excuse often used to justify cruel triumphalism by the victors.

Also much of the accounts of destruction came from Robert Sewell who emphasised the catastrophic retreat and destruction to heighten the dramatic effect.

Now to be sure you point about Hindus losing morale after the death of a leader(Rama Raya) applies here.But there is strong circumstantial evidence to show that there was a "dirty" guerilla urban war fought within Vijayanagar against the invaders.
It is also possible that Hindus destroyed the city themselves in the manner of Russians defiantly torching Moscow anticipating Napolean.

Vijayanagar in a reduced form carried on from Penugonda where it held ground against the Muslims until Shivaji relieved the burden.Interestingly Shivajis mother Jijabhai(who was distantly related to Harihara and Bukka) regaled him with tales of the glory of Vijayanagar which inspired him to carry on the the Hindu fight.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi rao,

i did NOT know who mr elst was till i saw an article in wikipedia calling PN Oak -- a CRACKPOT --

-- and wikipedia attributed this most generous and graceful observation to mr.koenraad elst.

Oak's fault was that he said that the black stone at kaaba mecca is a shiva lingam.

THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS THAT IT IS A SHIVA LINGAM. EVEN THE MUSLIMS KNOW IT.

ever since sabarimala had become the world's no 1 spot in pilgrimage there is a concerted foreign effort to ridicule the diety there-- LORD AYYAPPA.

a couple of years ago wikipedia pulled ayyappa to this side of the birth of islam , and lord ayyappa had conversations with a muslim peer. this made him a very recent phenomenon-- almost like mormons.

now they have abandoned this approach, jumped back by thousands of years -- and put lord ayyappa as a product of a HOMOSEXUAL UNION BETWEEN SHIVA AND VISHNU--after Samudra Manthan.

during the sexual act , mohini converted to back to vishnu -- and shiva continued the sexual strokes unable to control himself!!

this filth about a most worshipped hindu god, may still be there --

--if they have not yet cooked up a fresh story. wonder if wikipedia has the ba##s do this with allah or mohammed.

punch into google search MOHINI WIKIPEDIA and check it out yourself.

WE HAD ENOUGH OF WHITE FOREIGNERS RE-WRITING OUR INDIAN HISTORY.

and about astrology-- punch into google search

MIHIRA MUNI , THE GREAT ASTROLOGER CUM ASTRONOMER- VADAKAYIL

i own two cottages near meenangadi, on the western ghats of kerala, where this astrologer worked-- at MEENMUTTY FALLS with a huge lake-- a place out of this world.


capt ajit avadkayil
..

Charlie said...

Dear Capt Ajit,
Seems you have also started inhaling some of the methanol that you load on your ships.
Being racist is not restricted to whites. Reading your highly opinionated blog and your comment here point that all human beings are capable of the same. Since you believe that the Mecca Stone is a Shivlinga and Taj Mahal a temple, pls bring out a research paper and establish the same. This will however take more effort than your present hit and run method. More damage is done to the Hindu cause by misguided missiles like you and Oak than the Islamist and their apologists. The pseudo secularist, leftist media and their fellow travellers have been exposed layer by layer by people such as Elst over a period of 2 decades.
Read all that Elst has written on all topics and if you can match him in content and objectivity when proving all that you believe him, I will visit your blog to read those scholarly articles or else you may leave this site to readers like us who do not judge an article by the colour of the writer's skin but by its content.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi charlie,

abuse , sarcasm and terrific objectivity , on the first line -- itself.

my blogsite is NOT open for "desh drohis" and "angrez ka aulads".

i guess this leaves you out, charlie boy!

i have reduced myself , in coming down to your level.

capt ajit vadakayil
..

windwheel said...

'Nehruvian-secularist discourse'- was Nehru really a rabid anti-Hindu- like the mendacious careerists who claim his mantle?
He calls Allahabad, Prayag. Would Ramachandra Guha ever be guilty of such 'Hindutva fanaticism'?
I don't say he didn't make mistakes- so did Shyamji Krishna Verma, so did Savarkar who endorsed Socialism after its failure had become apparent, so did Srinivas Sastri, so did Rajaji.
But he would have been shocked to hear his Great-grandson say 'Hindutva terrorism is a greater threat to India than Islamic terrorism'.
I am certainly not accusing Dr. Elst of bias or mendacity. I've been slowly reading the other entries in Dr. Elst's Indology site. He is a gentle man and a gentleman- that is why he has been neglected. He has a vision of the world based on Love not Hate.
He is a patriotic person, not in any narrow sense, and free of colour prejudice- his only problem is a preference for the truth rather than the opportunistic lie.
Nehru, to my mind, is closer to Dr.Elst's neo-paganism. He too was a patriot- and what's more a patriot of Delhi, where his ancestors had settled. The Indian bureaucracy and Army were right to back him because, in his bones, he knew that without a strong Centre, without a Capital City free from the chauvinistic power of the local tribes, India would go back to the anarchy of the eighteenth Century. The alternative would be a loose federated India where the Capital City was held hostage by turbulent chieftans of dominant tribes in its vicinity- those same tribes, more than the British, defeated the 'Mutiny'. It is their khap panchayats which are posing a direct threat to the honour and safety of my young sisters, regardless of Caste or Regional origin, in the City where my patriotic parents have made their home.
Why confuse the liars and opportunists who claim to speak in the name of Nehru with the man himself?
Yes, he was a weak and vacillating man. True, he did not understand Economics. No question, he trusted the wrong Menon. But compare him to Solomon Bandarnaike or U Nu (if not Aung San) or Mossadegh or Zulfhikar Ali Bhutto- and his superiority becomes evident. True, he was a failure, but the truth is the Indians did not want a strong Central Govt. and Nehru's incapacity was a matter of historical record. Hence, his popularity.

windwheel said...

When all is said and done- he was less not more stupid than his rivals.
Nehru certainly was tolerant of Muslims and even, to some small extent, a connoisseur of Urdu poetry. Atal Bihari Vajpayee was ten times more so. Narendra Modi has done more for Muslims- including the Muslim Ghanchis of Godhra (who are his caste-fellows)- than any of these so-called Secularists.
Savarkar, Moonjee, et al, were entirely free of any casteist or narrowly creedal thinking. Nehru was not. There was an element of 'colour' prejudice in his thinking. But, please notice, he used Muslims- like his father's secretary, Kidwai- or even the Mahatma's favourite, self-acclaimed 'Imam ul Hind'- the drunkard Azad- but would not let anti-national Muslims use him even to the slightest degree. Mrs. Gandhi was the scourge of the Jamaati Muslim. She did in U.P, what no Jan Sangh politician would have dreamed of doing.
People say Nehru was pro-Muslim- rubbish! He was pro India. The Communists were the far bigger threat- they could not harm Muslim countries because they had disgraced themselves by supporting the creation of Israel- but among non-Muslim dominant ethnicities, no such prophylactic obtained- there were and are plenty of careerist, opportunistic, lying fucking toe-rag type Commies amongst 'high caste' Brahmins and Buddhists (in Burma, the same people who claim descent from the 'Sakya' (i.e. Lord Buddha's clan) and thus an 'Aryan' racial superiority, also espoused the stupidest type of Communism- destroying their very rich country.)

What is the essence of Dr. Elst's 'neo-paganism'? I don't know. But this is what I've noticed
1) he is interested in the truth- what actually happened rather than a 'Just So' story which justifies supposedly 'Socialist, Secular' shit-heads to ruin the Economy and endanger both National Security and the possibility of International Peace.
2) he showed prescience- 20 years ago- by focusing on a dangerous aspect of Islam- one that put Muslims at risk and on the path to impoverishment, similar, though less draconian, to that militated for by totalizing ideologies like Clericalism or Communism.
Elst was right. The bogus 'Secularists' were wrong. Naipaul was right, Dalrymple (who has a charming prose style and isn't an out and out Perry Anderson type Marxist shit-head) is not just wrong but has failed in a much larger way- he has failed to engage with his subject matter. Like the British Foreign Office, he's on a hiding to nothing.
3) Neo-paganism is not about deviant sex or the manufacture and sale of methamphetamines by biker gangs- it's Humanism saved from totalizing 'Enlightenment' projects- whether Purva Mimamsaka Brahmin, or Buddhist or Bolshevik or Ba'athist or whatever.

Elst, I believe is Flemish- an ancient race. So are the Welsh. Welsh was castigated by a British Parliamentary Committee as a 'pagan' 'uncivilized' language whose use in Schools would tend to increase sexual immorality. Similarly, Flemish was considered uncouth when compared to 'Civilized' French.
Elst's neo-paganism has some beneficial consequences for the creation of a prosperous and peaceful Europe.
He has criticized Dalrymple quite correctly but using only moderate language.
Maybe, Elst is not 'neo' but 'paleo' Pagan- the word means someone living in the countryside; a farmer, a shepherd, someone who gains nothing but an inner disgrace by telling lies.

windwheel said...

Responding to Capt. Ajit Vadakayil- whom I've awarded the stupidest Hindutiva blogger of 2012 award- I am obliged to point out, regardless of any shite he actually says, that he is a fugugly ignorant cunt. This is not the fault of the Rothschilds'. It's because he is a turd.
As for that gaping sphinchter- YVS Rao- marry Vadakayil why don't you? You write shite because you are shite, and know you are shite, don't you, you worthless fucking worthless cunt?
I'm trapped at the worst New Years party ever. Help!

ysv_rao said...

@ windwheel It is their khap panchayats which are posing a direct threat to the honour and safety of my young sisters,
"If your young sisters share your repugnant Im sure they will be just fine, hey even rapists have their standards!"

regardless of Caste or Regional origin, in the City where my patriotic parents have made their home."

What are your parents were beaureucratic parasites which infest each and every capital city in the world.D.C being another solid example.As diplomats they have not done an honest days work,neither have they the courage of conviction to stand up of the mistreatment of Indian citizens abroad.And no amount of name dropping or name calling on your part can change that fact!

Re Delhi and Nehru-it was hardly a courageous decision to have Delhi as the capital.That was a foregone conclusion.And much of what you attribute to Nehru rightfully belongs to Sardar Patel.

You call yourself a Hindutvaadi- a strange claim indeed since you are pro Nehru,pro Gandhi,only mildly critical of Muslims and communists and anti Israel.

Flemish and Welsh are not really ancient races ,as pretty much all "ancient" races in Europe were done in the chaos of the Napoleanic conquests and the Industrial revolution.
Only Welsh maybe somewhat ancient as they have pre Saxon Romano Brit bloodlines and heritage.But they were thoroughly anglicized in genes in culture over the last 100 years.200 years ago, a blonde child was considered such a rarity in Wales that he was referred to as Sasenach(Saxon boy) but nowadays blondes a dime a dozen.
The Victorian English believed that pretty much any non English were sexually immoral.Heck for this reason they wanted to severly restrain relations between English and Indians.Such a seperation and mistrust led to the events of 1857.

Your grasp of Western history is just as impressive as your Indian history.I believe you are stupid enough to take this as a compliment.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi windwheel,

you are who we indian call a slimy DOUBLE AGENT.

you write bad things about me here-call me a cu#t- and then you immediately come to my site--

MUTHAPPAN DEITY OF NORTH KERALA- VADAKAYIL

-- give me 3 bags full of SIRS etc etc.

you are a disgrace to india-- and judases like you have sold india in the past.

i will NOT direct my readers to this post , for poor mr konraad elst will get his site vandalised--and he does NOT deserve that.

i have nothing against mr elst.

he is entiltled to his own opinion as a foreigner about india. as long as he does NOT tell lies about India and Indians (by being a wolf in sheep's clothing), i do NOT care.

i have 220 000 people on my site daily with 440 000 post hits daily.
91% of them are foreigners.

let it be .

capt ajit vadakayil
..

ysv_rao said...

Responding to Capt. Ajit Vadakayil- whom I've awarded the stupidest Hindutiva blogger of 2012 award- "


Im sure he is aghast with despair!

I am obliged to point out, regardless of any shite he actually says, that he is a fugugly ignorant cunt. This is not the fault of the Rothschilds'. It's because he is a turd."

The one who who uses words like turd,shite,cunt,fuck etc in a comment board where such "eloquence" was not previously used are actually ones who remain the turd in the punchbowl.

As for that gaping sphinchter- YVS Rao- marry Vadakayil why don't you? You write shite because you are shite, and know you are shite, don't you, you worthless fucking worthless cunt?"

Patriotism was famously said to be the last refuge of a scoundrel.I dont agree with that statement but sometimes I wonder if there maybe something to that when characters like windwheels yell their patriotic pedigree from rooftops.

Similarly abuse and filth is the first and last refuge of a pathetic tool.

Your lame and stupid insults if ineffective the first time are not really going to have any effect this time.
Now I am to marry Capt Ajit?Hohoho!
So is my engagement to Deepak Sarma off?
You really are a witless and talentless hack.
Your writing is poor and obtuse ,filled with factoids with no coherence ,structure or a unifying theme.But when in doubt fill it with academic jargon such as subaltern or soeteric.Yes that will convince people you know what you are talking about.
A famous comedian commenting Donald Trump's famously garish tastes described as how a hobo would live if he won the lottery.
In that vein you strike me as how illiterate ignoramus would write if he had a few books at his disposal.

Also with your looks I wouldnt go around call others ugly.
Captain Ajit atleast engages the camera and challenges the viewer to meet his gaze unlike you with your shifty ,beady eyes averting eye contact surely due to your utter lack of confidence and cowardice.

I'm trapped at the worst New Years party ever. Help!"

I get the feeling your entire life is a bad party where you are ignored at best and spat upon,insulted and beaten at worst.

Once again you have proven to be the turd in the punchbowl.You have heaped abuse and filth when not provoked.
If this is not a pathetic ruse to gain attention I dont know what is,I dont wish to engage you anymore and indulge in your craving for attention,be it postive or negative.These shall be last words to you.

Enjoy dwelling your fantasy world.


ysv_rao said...

@ Captain Ajit

Its best to ignore windwheel and his abuse.

Koenraad Elst has contributing immensely to our understanding of Indian history and to a lesser extent of Hinduism.
He makes error in judgement about Hinduism because he is not practitioner.

I believe it was Voltaire who stated that never attribute to malice what you can to incompetence.

So we have to Koenraad Elst benefit of doubt when he makes occasional erroneous statements about Vedic astrology in this case.Though "incompetence" is not the word I would use in this case but misinformation.

There may be something to Kaaba being associated with Shiva.Like Allah Shiva was a lunar diety. Sita Ram Goel makes a stronger case than P N Oak ever did here

http://bharatvani.org/books/htemples2/app2.htm

Also I dont understand your fascination with the Rothschild and Jewish conspiracies?

Whats with all these anti Zionist Hindutvadis?! The last time I checked -the Israelis are our allies!

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi rao,

the first time i disagreed with koenraad elst, one of his readers radha rajan , took his side -- and she told me to pipe down.

i do know that radha rajan is a desh bhakt -- as she speaks in calicut, my hometown.

i am NOT a PN Oak fan.

but i agree with him -- whatever he said about kaaba black stone.

for i am from calicut which is closely associated with this stone.

the fact that shiva lingam contains DNA was endorsed officially by NASA last year.

punch into google search -

NASA DNA BUILDING BLOCKS IN METEORITE- VADAKAYIL.

and

VEDIC PRACTISES IN MECCA- VADAKAYIL

all this is NOT mumbo jumbo by a "crack pot"

capt ajit vadakayil
..

windwheel said...

@ Capt & Mrs. Vadakayil- happy honeymoon and may all your troubles be little ones.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

windmill,

dont drag it further.

your neighbour tells me --just now, that your reputation is EXTREMELY poor.

slow down!

let it be!!

capt ajit vadakayil
..


windwheel said...

@ Capt. Vedikkai,

'your neighbour tells me --just now, that your reputation is EXTREMELY poor.'
Nonsense. He told you to fuck off you obnoxious little pervert. You heard what you wanted. I suppose you blame the Rothschilds. For goodness sake, get over your lingam obsession or share it with your new bride.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

windmill,

hey -- SUPER LECH !

your email ID-- for your ilk !!.

polypubs@gmail.com

your neighbours dont want you around.

i am being kind by not putting down your address.

capt ajit vadakayil
..

windwheel said...

Oi, worthless cunt- just try something you piece of shit and I will destroy you and your family. You psychotic hate-monger- I am giving you fair warning. Putting a mad dog like you down is a public service.
Think about it- worthless coward.

windwheel said...

Oi, filthy pimp- I will come after you and your pimp sons Ashvin and Aashiq- you've made me angry you worthless cunt. A piece of shit like you think you can intimidate me! I will destroy and uproot your entire family of vipers and hate mongers. You have no idea what I can do to you whereas you are literally impotent with respect to me.
You apologize within 24 hours- worthless fucking cunt. No one will lift a finger to help you in your own community.

Charlie said...

Dear Mr. Elst, could I request you to intervene and stop publication of emails which are not relevant to the topic being discussed.

windwheel said...

@ Charlie- fair play to you, things have got out of hand. However, one good thing has come out of this. It turns out this evil hate-monger Vadakayil represents a terrorism risk and that his movements must be monitored. I've looked at his blog- this man is literally mad! He can't be allowed to carry on in his profession or indeed be permitted to travel absent constant surveillance.
Anyway, all this is above my pay grade so I've passed his info. on to where it will do most good. Obviously, a nut-job like him may be too cowardly to do anything himself but his sons, brain-washed since birth, must be properly investigated.
I have no problem with friendly or unfriendly banter but this shit-head has been foolish enough to threaten me.
I normally don't respond to threats with threats of my own- threats are a confession of weakness, of stupidity- in any case, it is not my own skin I'm worried about.
This rabid Anti Semite is the sort of nut-job who is amenable to 'false flag' recruitment- i.e. Hindutva will get the blame for his crimes while the real master-minds are killing themselves laughing.
Anyway, I suppose he is already under surveillance. Still, on the Indian side, let the State level police also take notice and it is to that end that I've circulated details of this criminally insane lunatic.

I think it is important that people visiting blogs like this show alertness for out and out nutjobs who espouse extreme views and have the capacity to carry out vastly destructive terrorist actions. Otherwise one day we will wake up and read in the newspapers about 'Hindutva terror' and will only have ourselves to blame for not exercising vigilance.
Jai Hind!
Har Har Mahadev!

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi all,

mr elst-- i am afraid that your post got vandalised. i do apologise.

just a small disagreement about astrology --

-- for lord rama's and lord krishna's horoscopes are available in hindu mutts --

--and i have put lord krishna's horoscope ( 6000 year old ) in one of my posts, and on my computer too .

6000 years ago -- greeks did grunt grunt for language !

as for a paranoid schizophrenic who is still hyper ventilating --

i shall NOT repond at his level-

if you see his blog site he needs to use vulgar words in every post. pity him.

and i shall NOT reveal what 3 of his neighbours told me -- one a woman.

this is a time when laws are being framed for chemical castration-- even for peeping toms .

MR ELST-- I GUESS YOU SHOULD DELETE THESE COMMENTS -- IF YOU FEEL FIT.

AND DEAR WINDMILL - PLEASE SLOW DOWN -- YOU ARE BURNING YOUR BEARINGS.

this will be my last comment.

capt ajit vadakayil
..

windwheel said...

Vadakayil you lying little shithead- I gave you fair warning.
I now repeat that I consider you a psychotic hate-monger who has the capacity to carry out terrorist outrages of the most heinous type. I believe that a pervert like you would have brainwashed your sons and other people in your network. Thus I demand that all proper measures be taken by both National and International Agencies in the light of demented, criminally actionable material you yourself have made publicly available on the Internet.
Since you identify yourself as a Sea Captain in your libelous remarks against me- I have grounds for an action against you which directly reflects on your professional standing.
In view of the racist hatemongering on your web-site I have no compunction in denouncing to all professional bodies, Port authorities, National and International Law enforcement Agencies as well as Marine Insurance Companies such that I stand clear of a charge of misprison.
Worthless cunt, what do you get out of making a fool of yourself like this?
What harm can you do me either professionally or personally? You are an ignorant cunt.
Worthless coward you will rue this day.

ysv_rao said...

@windwheeel

I disagree with pretty much everything Capt Ajit says in his blog particularly about these crank Freemason and Zionist conspiracies.But I see little difference in quality between them and the what communist supporters of your beloved Nehru believed.

You have repeatedly engaged in abuse and invective when not provoked.There were many ways of disagreeing in a civil manner which you failed to do and instead you turn this blog comment board into a sewer only because you enjoy wallowing in your filth.

Now your threats against Capt Ajit are noted but I think he is retired and if so doesnt give a damn.
You however are a son of a diplomat and do you really believe your reputation wont take a serious beating when your scatological blog and vile posts are revealed for all the public to see?

windwheel said...

ysv rao- I see you enjoyed your honeymoon. It is perfectly right and proper for you to speak up for your husband. I am reminded of Queen Kaikeyi who came to the aid of her husband on the battlefield.
Such militancy in defence of one's husband is perfectly in accordance with Hindu dharma.
However, I would like to point out that engaging in sodomy for the specific purpose of enlarging the rectum so as to accommodate a larger payload of explosives for the purpose of terrorism- either domestic or against a foreign target- is NOT licensed by Hinduism. Indeed, to my knowledge such a proceeding has no Religious sanction- i.e. it is a myth that some fatwa exists condoning your course of action.
Mind it kindly.

ysv_rao said...

@windwheel Your utter stupidity and complete lack of creativity in insults in showing again.
In all this talk of proctology, sphincter and homosexual marriage which you have a disturbing obsession for all I can say it takes one to know one I suppose!

and regarding Capt Ajit ,yes he is anti Zionist crank but despite that I find his personality far less objectionable to yours even though we agree on more.

Looks like the fruit falls very far from the tree-as a diplomats son,you have a curious ability to easily make enemies!

Eagerly anticipating the next gay double entendre!

windwheel said...

Don't be so eager. Always preserve an air of mystery. Recall the fate of Madam Bovary. However the best course is fidelity in marriage. Post honeymoon blues are a common phenomenon. 'Grass always look greener...'
Observe karva chauth and your libido will lessen- in this way you will start to take comfort and joy from your husband's opinions and cease to hanker for the attention of strangers who harbor nothing but revulsion for you in their breast.
Mind it kindly.

ysv_rao said...

Why are you still talking? I thought the guy I paid to splash acid on your face would have done so by now?Oh dont misunderstand ,its not because Im upset with you.It because I feel sorry for you that your wretchedly ugly twisted pie hole you call a face has led to a heart as generous and compassionate as a black hole and a mind suited to limited cunning,fish market type abuse and shovelling dung than intellect.

By splashing acid and the resultant disfigurement wouldve made you better looking- you sure as heck couldnt look uglier.

Dont take it personally

windwheel said...

Adid? Poor fellow probably thought you meant after-shave. I do recall some fey young man squirting some cologne or other such product in my face as I was entering the shopping mall. Come to think of it, he may have been squirting acid. The truth is I'm even uglier than my profile photo. That's why you should hire a blind hoodlum next time. This fellow just screamed and ran away.
Still I am touched by your tendresse for me. It seems marriage is suiting you and helping you grow as a person. Perhaps I was wrong about you...WAIT A MINUTE... Rahul Baba tried same trick on me...you are in cahoots! Damnn Brahmin boys- they break your heart every time and then laugh about it!
Ja, ja- tu bewafa!

windwheel said...

It is a matter of regret that I've had to sign off on measures which will destroy a fellow commentator and permanently handicap his sons and other members of his caste/ community.

This man has not issued me an apology- nor will I regret the arson of his house arising out of his univocity as fart.

Ysv rao-how old are you? do you have ovaries?- if your are less than 12 and answer 'don't know' =you might pass for someone worthy of my Symposium.

You are a fool.
Don't kid yourself.
Capt. Haddock really is the farthest you can go.

Worthless youth, you have contributed to that old man destroying himself and also harming his own sons and family.
Why?
What did you get out of it?
Or, if that was your plan all along, what did you hazard for the sake of this outcome?

You really think a cunt like you can help me against an elderly turd like Ajth?

I won't come after you. But won't stop others doing so.
My bet- you will die, 'fore I...

windwheel said...

Some small measure of success. These guys are fucked. They pay money to come to America they get arrested.
I've had the charity to include this cunt's sons under the 'Dhiren Barot' rubric.
This worthless shit who poses in a Captain's uniform made the mistake of telling lies about me.
He thought I was some soft little baby.
What I said, I will do. This cunt has not apologized. His property, his children, his family- FUCK THEM ALL- i WILL NOT CARE.

I refuse in advance to reduce kidnapping fees etc. The entire family should be 'educated'

JSV-Rao- you have been the ring leader in bringing this man to shame and justice.
I spotted that you were a woman or terribly gay cunt.
It is out of my hands. You are the worthless bastard claiming Brahmin superiority, Telugu this and that, whom we will blame.
Congratulations, stupid worthless cunt- you are the author of the death of teenagers.
This is the prophesy of 'Iyer'- worthless cunt,it will come true.

HAVE YOU NO SHAME? YOU PUT THE IDIOT VADAKAYIL IN THE FRAME AND THEN THOUGHT TO JUST GET BY?

Your being fucked in America. I can't make money from- but in India?= BABY!

oNE OF THE PEOPLE OF YOUR NAME IS GUILTY AND WILL BE BADLY TORTURED/SLAUGHTERED.
I hope it's you. If not, babe, where do you live?

windwheel said...

I won't come after you Rao.
You are shit.
My contempt for you is without limit.
Vadakayil and his family will over a course of years not months- suffer the karmic fruit of one's man error.

ysv_rao said...

Hey windwheel, Im sorry I dont understand and dont care about the ramblings of a deranged lunatic.

Capt Ajith is not my concern but I have a feeling he will be just fine and your lack of success in your lunatic mission will again will magnify your impotence.

My condolences.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

Hi vivek iyer ( windwheel ) ,

I am breaking a promise to mr elst, not to comment again, to do something bonafide.

When you commented in my blogspot – you did so as a graceful, respectable and intelligent man.

you said that you identified with me- as a bird of the same feather.

Your words were kind , without any negativity.

You cannot self destruct like this.

You belong to a level headed family and your sister is a UN diplomat.

Punch into google search -

MUKESH AMBANI AND DONALD TRUMP VADAKAYIL

There is a message for Donald Trump at the end about a raft, waterfall, river and fish.

Read this—ponder over it.

I had proposed Vipassana meditation for Trump.

Punch into Google search VIPASSANA MEDITATION VADAKAYIL

Do this for one month to surgically remove all negativity.

If you do NOT abuse me with vulgar words after reading this piece – I will imagine that you can be salvaged.

I will be happy for you.

Remove all profanities from your prose ( while writing for yourself ) -- and you can be a VERY good poet.

Nobody is so important on this planet — that you should hyper ventilate over him.


Capt ajit vadakayil
..

windwheel said...

Ajith, I've given you a chance, you've failed to take it. Now your family and you will be destroyed.
You and Rao are too stupid to engage in literary criticism and are quite worthless from the ethical stand-point.
I have and will cause you damage of a material and substantial sort. You can do nothing to me.
You are a fool and now you will get your comeuppance.
This was last your chance.
You blew it.
Go fuck yourself.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi all,

i am reminded of a small sparrow.

punch into google search SUPER PANCHATANTRA VADAKAYIL

capt ajit vadakayil
..

ysv_rao said...

Hey Vivek Iyer, I reckon your female family members are prostitutes of one sort or the other.
Clearly your sister shares your genes so she must be hideous,so I assume she prostitutes her country in her capacity as a diplomat than herself(as there are no takers)by selling state secrets to hostile powers and channels the money into her Swiss bank account.

I am told that you pimp your wife to foreign dignitaries whose contacts you acquired from your sister.
Sad to see that's your only source of income.

I think suicide is the best way out for you.

ysv_rao said...

Also Vivek Iyer- you are a damn fool who knows as little about America as you do about India- how exactly would one be arrested in America for something one WROTE? I hope you realize the U.S has a little thing called the First Amendment to the constitution which guarantees free speech which is how you are able to distributing German videos you do.

Say does your wife have any videos which relate to her occupation.I would like to purchase if only to alleviate some of your poverty!

You see I am a compassionate man!

windwheel said...

@Rao- Well, let's see what the Americans think about your slandering a senior diplomat posted there.
Threats of throwing acid in the face? Hmmmn.
Good to know you won't be returning to India- I've a funny feeling your passport might be flagged.
Have fun with that.
Clearly Elst doesn't read the comments here- can't say I blame him. I guess we've managed to chase away all the genuine readers of this blog and will have to ourselves migrate to greener pastures.
Incidentally, rather than using books as an anal suppository you might try reading them sometime.
They say a lady should always be given the last word- I suppose you deserve that consideration since your marriage.

ysv_rao said...

Well, let's see what the Americans think about your slandering a senior diplomat posted there."

You remain an idiot.Your so called "slander" is covered under satire. Which is how columnists called for the assasination of Bush and filmmakers and talk shows eagerly executed a fiction based on this scenario.

Threats of throwing acid in the face? Hmmmn."

See above.
Good to know you won't be returning to India- I've a funny feeling your passport might be flagged.

Haha!ok...You know as little about America as you do about India.My passport would be flagged for some online comments about some self absorbed twit no one gives two hoots about while the veiled threats against a U.S President go unpunished! Hahaha dream on...

Have fun with that."

Have fun trying to bring to fruition your bizarre fantasies.

Clearly Elst doesn't read the comments here- can't say I blame him. I guess we've managed to chase away all the genuine readers"

Whoa ,wait a minute buster...what do you mean "we". You can thank YOURSELF and no one else for this honor. I dont seem to recollect initiating vulgar abuse and invective in order to make some point.

of this blog and will have to ourselves migrate to greener pastures."

I will be staying right here if thats ok with you.

Incidentally, rather than using books as an anal suppository"

Sorry but your publications are only useful as toilet paper. So what you want me to do?

you might try reading them sometime.
They say a lady should always be given the last word- I suppose you deserve that consideration since your marriage"

You are the type of lame insult comic who believes that unfunny barb will become more and more effective the more you use them.

Just do India a favor and defect to Pakistan.We could use a guy like you....on the other side.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

Hi ,

What started this avalanche?

Why are we losing perspective?

I also know bad words – nobody can beat a sailor here , but I have kept my bad words in check ever since I wore 4 stripes on a uniform , 3 decades ago.

Mr Koenraad Elst , “FRIEND OF HINDU INDIA” , claiming that Vedic Indians stole astrology from Greeks is MORE stupid that saying that Vedic Indians stole palmistry from Cheiro ( William John Warner ) .

Cheiro man stayed in the outhouse on my Saraswat Brahmin colleague’s grandfather for 2 year learning palmistry to milk his future rich Western clients .

His Indian teacher died a pauper , but this Irish con-man died a millionaire.

He conned the rich and famous – never mind, but he gave Palmistry a bad name.

Cheiro turned out to be a con-man and his book is full of inaccuracies, as he did NOT have the perception matter to understand all this.

Wanna know Palmistry?

Punch into Google search- THE NAIVE SAILOR FORMALDEHYDE FUMIGATION VADAKAYIL

Here I talk about diagnosing a small new born baby with Down’s syndrome , after noticing the Simian lines on the baby’s palms and the furrow on the foot between the slipper toe gap .

Capt ajit vadakayil
..

ysv_rao said...

@Capt Ajit

What do you think you will find if you read this Vivek Iyers palm?

I am guessing it would suggest a self important,vulgar,cowardly, well educated but incredibly dim gas bag who is drunk with what little power he has.

Notice how when he cant take any more insults (even as he started them) he resorts to threats by invoking his authority and connections.

This sadly is a common habit with Indians in power.We dont know how to wield it wisely.

A refreshing thing about Americans is that they are (so far) a nation of laws not men.Hence Bush's daughters can be arrested on drunk driving and prescription drug fraud.
Obama's aunt can be questioned and possibly deported by immigration for overstaying her visa.
Bill Clinton can be impeached for lying under oath about his sexual misadventures.

It is so because Americans demand it be so.Indians despite their rhetoric as so accustomed to being serfs over the last 1500 years or so that they actually celebrate a politican behaving like a king answerable to no one.
This is where dynastic politics also comes in.
Until Indians change their mindset, democracy in India will remain a running joke because the elected representatives only represent the people and if the latter are flawed ,how can we expect the former to be angels?

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi rao,

probably we must pity vivek iyer.

he says that you threatened him with PAIN on the internet.

what about his LIFE threats to me -- here and also in my site (which i saved) and then deleted , to prevent my own readers from getting provoked ?

i showed his "windwheel" threats to me and my family, to my DIRECTOR GENERAL OF POLICE class mate and he had a nice laugh and he says "if you want to press charges, he can be put away for several years ".

OR

i just need to direct my ex-shipmates to his residence , if i want to play dirty. thousands have been through me.

i experimented with my ship's crew and converted their sailor mindsets into COMMANDO MINDSETS -- if i tell them to jump overboard they would only ask me "which side sir?"-- not why.

then one day an grave incident happened, which disturbed me , and i eased off ever since -- simple sailors cannot have commando mindset.

one sailor fell in harm's way -- and the whole crew would have sacrificed their lives in an attempt to save him-- domino type.

such was the camaraderie.

you can read this HIBERNATION WITH HYDROGEN SULPHIDE GAS VADAKAYIL

let it be. enough has been said.

we must close this episode, in a graceful manner ( with whatever is left of grace ) .

vivek iyer -- maan , i hope you wont abuse me again, as i can see you like to have the last vulgar protcological verse word.

capt ajit vadakayil
..

Karthikrajan said...

@ Captain ajith,
{ Mr Koenraad Elst , “FRIEND OF HINDU INDIA” , claiming that Vedic Indians stole astrology from Greeks is
MORE stupid that saying that Vedic Indians stole palmistry from Cheiro ( William John Warner ) }.

i don't think KE makes any such claims. Indians may have borrowed or plainly copied from greeks, nevertheless they have perfected it. The 'naadi jothidam'
of chidambaram Nataraja temple (based on the finger print of the thumb) is so famous for its accuracy, that the tradition even warns the astrologers that certain predictions should not be revealed,else the astrologers themselves will face ruin and even death. My own colleague's elder brother couldn't escape. Astrologers noted a 'bad time' in his horoscope and advised his family to conduct a 'homam' in their house continuously for 16 weeks as a 'parihaar'. This man was working in the navy and posted in goa. On the
very last day , his family got a message from the navy that the young man had visited a rocky beach in goa,
slipped, fell into the sea and drowned. What strikes me is the absence of logic in astrology. Maybe it was created to re-assure the skeptical minded people or those who are apprehensive of their future.

Capt. Ajit Vadakayil said...

hi karthikrajan,

in 1975, my ship on which i served as 3rd officer, was at scaramanga shipyard of piraeus ( athens ) for 40 days.

there is NOT much of greece i have NOT seen for the past 4 decades --

-- or for the matter belgium which can be hopped -- skipped-- and-- jumped in one go.

all that was worth remembering about belgium was a huge gorrila at antwerp zoo, who used to stare at my son . it was there in deep depression for so many years .

have been interested in history since school.

have seen almost every piece of ancient greek artifacts -- in greece and in london museum.

always wondered how people sit at home and write with great authority about parts of the world -- they have never seen.

capt ajit vadakayil
..

ysv_rao said...

@Karthikarajan

In all this talk of astrology,palmistry,horoscopes(jatakam) and the like,people would draw the inference that Hindus are fatalistic.

That everything is ordained-nothing is further from the truth.

Hindu astrology attempts to measure the influences of the planets and stars on the human personality.

And various yagnas and penances such as those described by yourself are designed to correct them or overcome their influence( the most notorious being shani(Saturn) or Mangal(Mars))

As brilliant as Dr. Elst ,sometimes I wonder if he suffers amnesia.
In his update on the Aryan invasion debate published a decade ago, he made a very strong case for native astrology by confirming the date of commencement of the Kali Yuga in 3012 BC and Manu's exodus to North India from present day TN due to the flood in 6676 BC.
And in an earlier blog post ,he mentioned that early Vedic belief of afterlife was not of reincarnation but of mapping(hence the word naksha(map) derives from nakshatra(star)) the deceased individual to a star in the sky(Trishanku for instance

One has to remember the mythological tales of sages giving "birth" to stars and planets are metaphor for said sages discovering and naming said stars,planets or constellations as in the Sapta Rishi and Ursa Major.

We already see eclipses being described and named as early as the Upanishads and the "churning"-Rahu and Ketu.

ysv_rao said...

@ Capt Ajit

Belgium may be an unholy union of the lackadaisical Walloons and the industrious Flemish(such as Dr Elst) but Antwerp can be quite lovely.

Also Dr. Elst has lived in India on and off since 1990 and probably speaks Hindi a lot better than I can.

ysv_rao said...

Back to Vijayanagar...

As a Telugu, Vijayanagaram is a source of great pride and share in the glory of the king Krishnadeva Raya.Probably the most glorious Hindu king not just since the Islamic invasions but since Harsha Vardhana.

Incidentally VS Naipaul in his "Wounded Civilization" was puzzled that so many students in nearby Bangalore hadnt heard of it.And from this he deduced that it was because it was a flawed and unoriginal civilization(he went to compare its sculpture,art and music poorly to the Cholas).
The sculpture may have been derivative but its architechture,if the Hampi ruins are anything to go by, were nothing to scoff at.

In any event his deduction is inaccurate.There are better reasons for the obliviousness of those he surveyed

1) Vijayanagar,despite Kannadiga chauvinists who wish to claim it, does not mean as much to Kannadigas as it does to Telugus who even now take greater pride in its accomplishments
2) He asks college students-of course they are more interested in Indian/American idol and ShahRukh Khan than cultural heritage
3)Once again the genesis of Vijayanagar leads itself to self censorship in the leftist dominated academia and historiography.If Vijayanagar is a good thing then it follows that Islamic expansionism and exitential threats existed and then the latter was a bad thing.
Best then to not confront it and just ignore the entire history!
Problem solved!

windwheel said...

Dear Mrs and Mrs Veddikai and Rao
I guess you noticed that Dr.Elst stopped listening long ago.
I am a writer so I always like to encounter different personality types.
I am also a 'politician' who makes money out of stupid people like you.

Ajith, send your men- if I can't beat them then I should pipe small- right?

I don't know kalari or anything, I just have courage that is all. Up till now- though I can get big wound I go forward and I prevail.

When I was below teen in Delhi School and without my full height, some North Indians used to tease- so I used to hit cruelly.
I don't know if you are Hindu. I can deal nicely with any number of people you send- do they know fighting?
I don't.
I know Courage.
I am NOT giving you a second chance.
Just saying- I will take your House from you by purely legal means.
You are not human- you are a rat.

windwheel said...

Veddikail
look, as you may be aware, you are considered a Terrorist and your children, brain washed products of Terrorism.
Since such a view is true, it has already been implemented.
You and your associate YSR Rao have made many statements indicative of an animus and ongoing threat against India's Diplomatic Representation in the U.S and Elsewhere.

Since I know you have no fighters and are are a cowardly little shit it follows that You will lose your property another way.

You will be slapped to death. You and all yours.

why?
Because you have condoned the rape of a Bhramin lady, that too a Vadadeshi Vadama Iyer, posted at senior level of U.N>

I have taken steps to protect my family. Your conspiracy with YSR Rao- a closet homosexual who tried to ingratiate himself with White Rapists- has been exposed.
Mr. Rao has used such language as cancels any clam on Naturalization he might otherwise have.

Worthless cunt, I think I'm gonna come and see you- you and your black cunts are smelly- I fucking see you and I will fucking take your EYES for Meenakshi's necklace.

windwheel said...

ysr rao- this feeble little excuse of a man who sucks cock so frequently as to emerge as a writer in the 'red pill' 'manosphere; talking nonsense of course.
Rao has constructively made explicit threats in violation of relevant Terrorism statutes.
Why did he do so?
He thought America let him say what he liked.
I'm kiding YSV Raoa and |Vadakayil are at large- but I make money from them.

Does this mean I endorse them in any way?
No.
They are stupid worthless ignorant cunts.That hasn't changed. What has is that I make money off them.Not a lot of money. Enough.
Anyway, good to know Elst's project is finally over. What a fucking Provincial cunt he turned out to be!
Anyway, if you've been following this= get a life. Seriously.
17maini

windwheel said...

'You remain an idiot.Your so called "slander" is covered under satire. Which is how columnists called for the assasination of Bush and filmmakers and talk shows eagerly executed a fiction based on this scenario.'
Those who think differently needed to triangulate you.
I was surprised you fucked up like this. You will be killed as a homo by the guys you try to grope in the 'Manosphere'. I will not lift a finger to help you.
Try coming back to India. You use foul epithets about- guess what?- me.
I will take your wealth. We are friends remember. I will help you through this. Yes, but the Gandhian way.
You are not making enough money. Anyway, I look forward to talking to you.
Or not.

windwheel said...

I suppose the issue here is who can cause more damage to the other.
I have denounced Ajith and his sons as terrorists. Given my reputation, this will hurt them materially. Ajit, BTW, provoked me by telling a lie to the effect that he was in contact with a female neighbour of mine who had reported me as a Peeping Tom.
Ajith just made up the whole thing- but also made the bizarre claim that I'd left a complimentary message on his worthless blog.

BTW, we are going to take away this cunts property in our own country.
He says-
i own two cottages near meenangadi, on the western ghats of kerala, where this astrologer worked-- at MEENMUTTY FALLS with a huge lake-- a place out of this world.

This man has severely offended Hindu Religion, he should be chastised.
Within 5 year time period we must destroy this man's material base. He should own no property. no money in bank. If he gets an annuity or pension he must not be allowed to use it for prupose of rape. Better you discipline.'

Think about it Rao. You don't have a lot of money in the States. You think your pals in the 'red pill' manosphere will help you once I show them this?
My elder sister is my elder sister- I have reported your threat. It appears you don't earn very much. And also you are part of a Rapist Club.
Fuck you.
I don't want to be involved.
What a fantastic friend you are to that fucking anti-Semitic cunt!



For me to come after you is for you to commit suicide.

In answer to your question- no. I don't want to see you naked.

ysv_rao said...

Hi Capt Ajit,

I note your diagnosis and indeed our friend Vivek is quite deranged as seen by his disjointed and incomprehensible writing and projects much of his dysfunctions(his repressed homosexuality as hinted in the name of his blog) on others such as us.

But I have to disagree with your prescription- he doesnt require love but an asswhopping by the authorities in question.

The fool either doesnt realize what he has done is illegal or he doesnt care as he prefers to hide behind his connections and influence.

Once again he has projected -he said he was set the authorities on us(for merely insulting him) but he is oblivious to the fact that we can have him incarcerated by the very same authorities for issuing death threats.

ysv_rao said...

And we are back now that the lunatic Iyer has retreated! Lets get back to some unexamined topics!


He had to take hostages and permit his men to rape them; nay, he just had to force the Jewish woman Rayhana into concubinage after murdering her relatives. If you don’t like what he did, blame Britain and America."

Why go so far in the future.Leftists have an excuse closer to the time zone -the Anglo American empire of that era ie the Byzantine Empire.As evil white imperialists did they did not concquer Arab lands and make off with the women and ravish them in Constantinople.
Let us leave us aside the uncomfortable fact that Byzantines never invaded Saudi or that Jews had little influence inthe empire.

But they did annex proto Arab regions of Syria and Jordan.So naturally the descedent of those people who formerly oppressed Syrian and Jordanians Arabs(Rayhana and Israelite expansionist kings) are bound by karma to suffer from the depredations of Arabs.

As for Byzantines and Jews having little in common? Potato,potaatoe...coke,pepsi ..its all the same..how can you tell one one western imperialist from another.

....Seriously you dont think someone pull this from their posterior(sorry to invoke you again Vivek) in order to explain away Muhammad's less than exemplery chivalric code?

ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli said...

Music: there is no Islamic contribution to Hindu Music. Rather it was the Muslims/converts trained in Hindustani music (Tansen etc) who kept enriching the same traditions that they were trained in. If anything, the fact that they had to be Muslims to get court patronage is what one needs to talk about. Architecture - yes, but again hardly anything that enriched the already elaborate and complex Hindu architecture. The saracen structures were probably more to assert the Muslim rulership's identity more than anything else.

ysv_rao said...

@ShankarBharadwaj

Yes Dr Elst addressed these issues here and before.If you could elaborate with more examples that would be helpful.

ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli said...

As Prof. Bharat Gupt notes, the development of traditional music in the north slowed down during invasions, and many raga renderings involve a lot of alapana - in contrast to south Indian classical music (Carnatic) whose renderings are enriched by thousands of devotional and philosophical Kirtanas. So where is the question of Muslims enriching music? On the contrary whatever little happened, was only improvisation in the gayaki. And this was not done by "Muslims" but those practitioners of Hindustani traditions some of who happened to be Muslims. This is entirely different from the architectural style that the Muslim rulers adopted.

ysv_rao said...

@ShankarBharadwaj

THanks for the info.So it likely that North Indian classical music before the Islamic invasions wasnt all that different from Carnatic music?
Was there no contribution from non Islamic foreigners such Sakas and Iranians who had shaped a good deal of culture in North India even before Islam.
Also do you have any idea why there is a greater tradition of secular themes in Hindustani music such as romance,chivalry and derring do but Carnatic is overwhelmingly religious?

ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli said...

The fact that the "trinity" of carnatic music who composed several thousands of kirtanas belonged to recent centuries, and that their compositions are primarily devotional and philosophical, explains the differences. Besides, though based on same principles they are two different systems, so the ragas etc understandably differ. The evolution of music itself right from samavedic svaras and octave to the elaborate ragas is quite native to Bharata (ref. Naradiya Siksha). I am not sure of the overall external influences on Hindustani music, but adopting a few elements would not be surprising.

windwheel said...

I would like to reiterate something in my original comment- viz. that I feel Dr. Elst is a gentleman and a gentle man who has a very important point to make for plural societies- viz. the path to reconciliation does not lie along the lines of burying the facts re. Inquisitorial tactics and hate crimes by anti-'pagan' (i.e. ordinary people living in harmony with the land)- cults and ideologies.
I don't know if I've understood Elst's neo-Paganism- most of us now live not off the land but as 'metics'- but, without question a severe injustice has been done him.

I am intolerant of bullies- always have been, always will be- just I am of hate-mongers. I believe that selective threats and beating can cure the 'hangers on' but not the core of any delinquent outfit.
In the case of Ajith and Rao- what we see here is the mature but paranoid (think 'Cain Mutiny') Ajit, touting his worthless blog, gain an opportunistic adherent in the shape of a smaller, sharper, more fundamentally evil, for very weak and 'testoterone challenged' little ephebe, who somehow feels his 'Brahmin' status will make him immune to chastisement.
The truth is I'd be prepared to fight the Captain backed up by his sons- nothing wrong in that- that's how people of different races become friends- but would not be prepared to touch a turd like this supposed anti-Muslim avenging angel of a (runt of the litter) Telugu Brahmin.
He tells me that Tamils are hated by every other South Indian community.
My answer is if even one son or daughter of Tamil Nadu keeps Casteist sentiments or Hate ideology in his or her breast- let us be hated! We deserve nothing else.
But, I think there are other Tamils who comment on this blog- unlike me they are in perfect mental health- they show the true greatness of the Tamil country.
I have never hid my mental disability- but it is controlled for by medication. My blog and books, which are linked to my profile for all to see, reveal this very clearly.
Greatly provoked- not from malice- not from the desire of a big strong man enjoying higher social and economic status to harm or hurt people of his own colour who have come forward on their own- I have taken certain actions which may harm fellow Hindus unless they are guilty of worse crimes.
I may be mad, I am not without conscience, without shradda, without Bhakti.
I have received both psychiatric as well as legal counsel regarding what I've written on this blog.
Both lawyer and Doctor are clear- I have responded to cyber-bullying in an ego-appropriate way.
Ajit is taking the right track. If he gets help himself- I will stand up for him.
He has property. He has family.For that reason I was more harsh with him. He must wake up out of this Fool's paradise which that worthless parasite YSR is encouraging him to remain captive within.
Ever since YSR's threat potential to Indian diplomats was realized- I've been frozen out.
By now I could easily have found him and his family. But, I must respect the very laws that protect me, the very medical regime that enables me to stand up for myself against an evil little shit like YSR.

Take-away point from all this- trolls on Elst's blog, beware- there may be more than one of me- big crazy dudes who know people where you live.

YSR and Ajit clearly knew I was mentally disabled before subjecting me to highly invasive cyber-bullying. The proof of this is that YSR uses the name Vivek for me and that he communicates with Ajit.
Oooo, but America will protect YSR? coz of like the 51st amendment in favour of cocksucking cockroaches?
No. No such Amendment exists.
Slam dunk- your Honour.
YSR- seriously, I will take an interest in your future- if you have one.

windwheel said...

@Shankara Bharadwaj,
My understanding is that strict Islam condemns music- except for 'azaan' and 'naat' without any instrumental or percussion backing. No doubt there was some Indian classical type musical tradition- what is called 'maqam'- in those regions.
There is a long standing belief that a King of Iraq brought 'jats' over not just to cultivate the land but to disseminate music and song.
Indeed, it is suggestive that the Urdu word for Music is mousike- the exact word Socrates uses in his Apologia to suggest he'd he have been better employed writing song than courting Sophia.
My own interest, and it may be you can help me here, is in the manner that a Pan-Indic Polyphonic tradition (whose memory is preserved in Buddhism)intermediated or was intermediated by Turanian/Tocharian aesthetics- including things like throat-singing- or, indeed, the manner in which the Tang dynasty 'tzu' relates to what we call 'pakad- something we see in Tamil Pan (vide. Dr. Marr) or, indeed, in the Shahi aesthetics which we call Kashmiri school.
It is interesting that, as my mother, was able to verify for herself, the Buddhist monks of the far country of Mongolia and Tani Tuva (where it was better preserved) have this commonality and shared tradition with the distant shore of Java- on which my ex-wife, and mother of my son, has written in a scholarly manner.
Yes, my mother and father were diplomats. YSV Rao has used four letter words and threats against them. Yes, my ex-wife is European- if I told my son about what this fellow is doing he will be dead in one day- but she was highly regarded by Dr. Padma Subhramaniyam. Indeed, that lady- who is a not very distant relative of mine- saw to my son's unpanayanam in a very correct style.

Perhaps you disapprove of my antecedents- perhaps you wish to denigrate me or mine. Do so, but be mindful of the consequences. It is a Tamil man you provoke.

windwheel said...

(contd)
From the Islamic side, I must tell you, the best authorities say only azaan and naat are permissible.
However, Hinduism was and still is very widely spread even if this not acknowledged. But Hindus are not narrow and provincial. We do not say 'I'm a Telugu Brahmin- everybody hates Tamils'- that is YSV Rao's attempt to destroy Hinduism and turn it into his private fantasy that all Hindus are weak and impotent against 'Muslims' and that because I am Tamil I am hated by non-Tamil South Indians.
I make no secret of my origins or the debilitating mental illness from which I suffer and which motivates me to seek comfort from the good and Godly.
Music has been a great refuge to me.
When I was 17 I was appointed Nightwatchman of the Indian YMCA in London. My own sister lived there. The Warden knew I would make sure that the reputation of the Women's section would be pristine.
I graduated at the age of 19 from the LSE. I am not uneducated- but I'm not exactly educated either. I'm a big guy. I break bullies and make them crawl on the floor. I may be descended from Brahmins, vegetarians etc, but I am a simple Tamil person. A stupid one. I never back down against palpable evil.
But, for this old idiot to apologize and make it up is a different thing because irrespective of caste, class or colour, ordinary people can always see the truth and find out who did what.
It is my proud boast that I've taken a lot of beating but never missed my man. In the context of the late 70's and early 80's in U.K this meant I was knifed and beaten with iron rods on my head but I still ran after and caught the fellow so the Police could take action. You have to show courage so that your community can establish itself. My mother- whom YSV denigrates, why?- she told me when I was 14- go to the house of this lady. She is being threatened by the White Supremacists.. You stay there. My father had said 'don't hit- we are diplomats'- mother said 'go-get hit'.
I got tough by taking beatings. Not by punching people- that's a rich person's fantasy. One has to become fire so that the blow goes through you with your breath.
Later, when I came into my own, I never misused my power. You will find zero conviction for assault on my file. No one has implicated me in any murder. I have not served any prison time either in India or Europe or U.S.
I have always been an influence for good in the Community. I ban use of drugs- who is complaining? There is always a way in any neighbourhood. Yes, I'm six foot, heavy build, very ugly- but, let me tell you, anyone with SPIRIT can make their street safe.
Tyagaraja, like this worthless bully YSV Rao, was some sort of Telugu Brahmin. Listening to his kirti, who will not be prepared to trade Life for so called Death provided some important gain for Humanity is upheld?
There is one line in English in a famous Telugu language film- Sankaravaranam- 'Music is Divine'.

So is the just chastisement of the miscreant Rao.

Karthikrajan said...

@ysv_rao: Interesting points ! The concept of 'mapping' (nakshaa) may have developed with the observation of the stars on the sky
when the very first humans slept in the open, gazing at these tiny white dots. The very fist
'influence' of the heavenly objects on the humnan's destiny must have undoubtedly been the
occurence of this 'bad omen' called solar eclipse (accompanied with the chilling of the weather)
which would have definitely scared their wits. This developed into astrology and astronomy
(nakshaa-shaasthraa ?). It is true that western world looked at indian astrology with disdain and treated it
as fatalistic superstition, but as the word itself suggests there must be some logic which we and
they may have missed. The logic is probably not only to take care of quivering minds but mainly to counter
voodoo/black magic, bad omen , evil spirits etc which were rife among the pagans. One saiva saint
Thirugnyaanasambandhar goes one step ahead and trashes the idea of inauspicious time, and says
that any time is auspicious time once people put their faith in lord siva. The role
played by the forces/energies of the nature like the planets (gravitation), sun (heat & gravitation)
on the destiny of humans was not ruled out entirely by the ancients. Astrology, to my knowledge,
is purely based on statistics and a massive one at that. The life history of various persons were
studied along with the planetary positions at that time. From this data, 'predictions' were extrapolated
which turned out to be true most of the time.

ysv_rao said...

@Karthikarajan

I agree with most of your points.However some caveats:

I agree partially with the Saiva saint the Shiva can overcome and dispel all restrictions heavenly or otherwise.This is why even demons prayed to Shiva.However the qualifier is that "faith" as he puts it is not enough, penance and achieving siddha by acquiring "boons" from Shiva is whats required to overcome any adverse alignments.This is how Hanuman, a devotee of Shiva was adverse to any planetary effects (symbolized by the story of him swallowing the sun in his youth)

Im not so sure that most Western people look down on Indian astrology.Those who look down on Indian astrology most likely look down on astrology in general.
Most western astrologers and mystics recognize Indias contribution to these arts .And even most astronomers(western or otherwise) are indebted to ancient astronomers of all races for their observations.
Even now rational scientists still use zodiac terms and stars named after Roman gods to describe the heavens due to their respect for the ancients.
Of course we use our own Hindu gods whose mythological aspects I am int the process of studying

Slight OT: It would appear that Western historians erroneously credit Babylonian civilization with the invention of astronomy who developed what the Sumerians started.

Interesting thing about Sumerians-oldest civilization in Mesopatamia-they say they got their civilization from the "seven sages" from across the oceans-could these be the Sapta Rishi who travelled with Manu from present day TN to North India during a flood.Sumerian has a flood myth which is basis of the biblical Noah story.
Also Sumerian language is said to have a lot of commonality with Tamil.
Something to ponder!

Regards

Nachiketa said...

The comments are totally off track from the subject . It is disgusting to go through the comments and the mud slinging in such dirty language and these people call themselves educated.The debate has degenerated to such extent that it is so complete that it is hard to believe that our forefathers i.e. hindu rishis and philosophers used to engage themselves in erudite debates.Can we claim to be their cultural heirs . Coming to the point: The Hindu empire of Vijayanagar under Sri Krishna Devaraya was so rich and strong that it faced all the four bahmani kingdoms singlehandedly. Ultimately, all the four had been forced to gang up against him and then only they could kill him . So much for the bravery of the muslims and the recent bragaddocio for Akbar Owaisi to say that 25 muslims can take on 100 hindus.

RAVI said...

hi ysv_rao,

oldest civilization in Mesopatamia-they say they got their civilization from the "seven sages" from across the oceans-could these be the Sapta Rishi who travelled with Manu from present day TN to North India during a flood

The actual story mentioned them to be formed from the god himself. I ponder if it could be the other way around. Because vedas have mentioned of seven sages but not named them explicitly(as in names) whereas sumerians had explicit details and names of seven sages. The name of seven sages appears later in the upnishads and puranas.

Again the sumerian culture predates vedas by atleast 1000 years.

Just a curious thought

Avinash the thinker(!) said...

@ysv_rao

Man with all respect Vijayanagara empire was found by kannadigas named harihara and bukkaraya, just like the regular kannada people they were tolerant of other languages and even wrote poetry in both languages (kannada and telugu), still you say that we have a chauvanistic pride, why? Aren't we supposed to be happy that people of our own region try to oppose the decline of our own religion? They have encouraged poetry as well as employed the famous tenali rama. they have started the empire in karanataka having their capital in hampi near bellary. It is one of the 2 main dynasties that started here, the ohter being kadamba, to make language of kannada as well as the region to shine in the spark of dharma of hinduism, So being telugu you can take pride for such glorius dynasty, but by being kannadiga i can take even more pride than you. Because guess what no matter how much you claim the originators are kannadigas.

ysv_rao said...

@avinash

APologies as I had worded that poorly. When i said that kannadiga chauvinists wish to claim it as their but Telugus take more pride in it, what I actually meant was that Vijayanagar resounds more with Telugus than with Kannada people today.
I do believe that Vijayanagar with of Kannada origin and the kings were usually Kannada and Tuluva(Krishnadeva Raya) but the generals , soldiers and literati were more Telugu than Kannada.

I am admiration for Kannadiga aesthetics. Both your sculptures, temples and women are much prettier ;-) but you are not as tough as you used to be when under Rashtrakutas and Chalukyas you conquered Rajasthan, Bihar, Bengal and Punjab and founded the Rajputs.
We otoh are still pretty assertive. Just check out Rayalaseema politics!

Prakash said...

No u r wrong. Vedas were written in 5000 bc. Sumerians came in 4000bc