tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post8079752696296473032..comments2024-03-21T00:42:18.535-07:00Comments on Koenraad Elst: The Indo-European, Vedic and post-Vedic meanings of ÂryaKoenraad Elsthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02503713923882807510noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-49849815250942665922018-10-15T12:59:09.090-07:002018-10-15T12:59:09.090-07:00I've not seen this:
> "since the Budd...I've not seen this:<br /><br />> "since the Buddha himself had considered his own teachings as a revival of the Vedic seers’ original instructions before they got corrupted by the priestly class, a less literal way of going “back to the Vedas”"<br /><br />attested anywhere in any Buddhist text. It does seem very similr to 19th-20th century Indian revisionist history statements that I have seen. You might check your source for that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09810871146815163709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-52955804965461740802015-10-21T13:33:07.774-07:002015-10-21T13:33:07.774-07:00A question related to linguistics:
Suppose we did...A question related to linguistics:<br /><br />Suppose we did not know the origin of the name "John" (Giovanni, Yahya, ....).<br /><br /><a href="http://www.behindthename.com/name/giovanni" rel="nofollow">http://www.behindthename.com/name/giovanni</a><br /><br />Suppose we applied the methods of comparative linguistics. Since "John" is found in so many populations of speakers of Indo-European languages, would we come up with a "proto-Indo-European John"? Maybe with an origin in the Eurasian steppes?<br /><br />Thanks!Arunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03451666670728177970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-16051449733652781922015-04-27T23:40:28.802-07:002015-04-27T23:40:28.802-07:00Allergy is a problem related skin. It comes threw...Allergy is a problem related skin. It comes threw rashes, spots at the skin and it has the problem itching also burning. It makes people discomfort. So, we must keep our self safe and proper care.<br /><a href="http://www.unisonbiomed.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=ALOKA%20UST-9126" rel="nofollow">ALOKA UST-9126 </a> <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16710131686065196125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-78068754815296640592015-03-29T21:08:30.976-07:002015-03-29T21:08:30.976-07:00Shravan Tanjore, I agree with most of your observa...Shravan Tanjore, I agree with most of your observations.<br /><br />Talageri is confounding Vedic and Purāṇic names. In the Ṛgveda there is only one Rāma Jāmadagnya, whose father is Jamadagni Bhārgava, whose father is Bhṛgu himself, one of the founding fathers of Vedic culture. In the Veda, we never come across this Rāma as an axe-wielding warrior like in the Purāṇa mythology. There is no way this Rāma is Iranian, although he probably lived along the western coast of India. This is supported by 2 sources: 1, the legend of him recovering land along the coast of Maharashtra and Karnataka; 2, Bharuch in Gujarat was originally Bhṛgukakṣa, or the region of the Bhṛgus.Golden Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249389319082539591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-72085009067774754842015-03-29T20:30:29.137-07:002015-03-29T20:30:29.137-07:00(1) In the Nirukta, "Arya" is derived fr...(1) In the Nirukta, "Arya" is derived from the Sanskrit root "ṛ - gatau" meaning "motion", which is the same derivation for "ṛtam" (dynamic cosmic order) and "ṛṣi" (Vedic seer). Nirukta is not that far removed from the Vedas, and preserves much of the original Vedic sense of words. Agni is called Arya, ṛṣi and ṛtavān, ṛtajā and ṛtam, showing that Arya meant someone who understands the dynamic order of the macrocosm and brings that order to the microcosm of human society through the ṛṣi, who is the embodiment of this cosmic truth. So there is an original spiritual sense in the word. However, different ethnic groups (Vedic Indians and Iranians) may have used it as a self-descriptive in the belief that they were closer to the cosmic order than their hostile neighbors. <br /><br />(2) I disagree with Mr. Talageri's identifying Veda with only the Pūru "tribe". Remember that the Ṛgveda is full of mention of "ancient seers, our forefathers who found the path before us - Aṅgirā, Bhṛgu, Atharvā" to whom the current seers trace their ancestry. We should seriously consider the current version of the Ṛgveda as a remnant or an edition of a still older Veda corresponding to the older seers. The already sophisticated language and concepts presuppose a long history of composing hymns and observing Yajña ritual. The ancestors of Anu, Druhyu, Pūru, Yadu and Turvaśa would then be contemporaneous with the older seers. Besides, in the hymns to the Aśvins, the twin Vedic gods are praised for having saved Yadu and Turvaśa from the flood. If all 5 "tribes" are not considered Vedic people, this has no explanation. <br /><br />(3) On the topic of castes being mentioned late in the Ṛgveda, I have 2 views. One, we are falling into the trap of circumstantial mention in one late hymn while the institution nevertheless existed during the period of the earlier hymns. Two, the earlier hymns fall into the golden age of "Kṛta Yuga" of Purāṇas, when there were no castes and no social laws.<br /><br />(4) The north-to-south migration of Brahmins that you mention is probably a later A.D. event, because even in the earliest B.C. Sangam literature, Agastya is already the patron saint of Tamil grammar, and the poems talk of priests performing fire rituals. <br /><br />(5) Your comparison of Indian caste appellations to European ones is very informative and accurate, I would say. You have updated the caste language to modern jargon. This shows that the caste system is really an economic division of labor that is inevitable in any society, modern or ancient. This is good thumb-nosing to the caste-system-naysayers.<br /><br />(6) Thanks for reminding me to add another word (Ayya) to my list of tadbhava words:<br /><br />http://goldenreed-hiranyayavetasa.blogspot.com/2014/09/list-of-tadbhava-sanskrit-words-ie.htmlGolden Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249389319082539591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-25631027568852403652015-03-26T01:53:36.922-07:002015-03-26T01:53:36.922-07:00Thank you for this informative article Dr. Koenraa...Thank you for this informative article Dr. Koenraad Elst. In Tamil "Ayya" has also long been used as an honorific in referring to or addressing male elders and respectable males irrespective of caste. Lately this is falling out of use with the English word "sir" used instead. Perhaps this is due to the influence of Dravidian politics.<br /><br />I think Aniketana is writing about a similar usage in Kannada.Balajihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09561110603904765636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-4289309451735918672015-03-22T02:10:48.549-07:002015-03-22T02:10:48.549-07:00Dr. Elst says "Against this, Talageri [2008:]...Dr. Elst says "Against this, Talageri [2008:] shakes the Hindutva pride further by arguing that the name Paraśurāma, “Rama with the axe”, is a misreading by Puranic authors of the Vedic name Parśurāma, “Persian Rama”, a nickname of Rāma Jāmadagnya, author of RV X.110, for whom he manages to demonstrate an Iranian ancestry.".<br /><br />How exactly does that shake Hindutva pride? Even if Mr. Talageri's speculation is true it still means Rama Jamadagnya was a Vedic person not of another religion.<br /><br />Also how did get the name Ram? A persian with the name Ram? You may manage an interpretation of Jamadagni (which in the first place means it is also possible to demonstrate a non Persian origin) but how do you manage to explain that a Persian was named Ram?.<br /><br />Atleast according to the Purana Rucheeka was the father of Jamadagni, how to Persianize Rucheeka?.<br /><br />Can Jambudvipa, Jambavati, Jabali, Jambavan, Jagadish, Jahnavi, Janak etc also be demonstrated to be from other tribes/clans in this case Persian?. The Itihaasa and Purana are important and must be given due consideration else such questions will arise.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-90373113668581889572015-03-22T01:51:24.597-07:002015-03-22T01:51:24.597-07:00Dr Elst said also quoting Mr. Talageri "For t...Dr Elst said also quoting Mr. Talageri "For those who are inclined to dismiss Talageri’s views as discredited by his Hindu nationalism, note that in a number of respects, his position goes against the majority opinion among Hindu nationalists, e.g. his denying an implication of moral superiority to the Vedic Ārya-s. While many Hindu writers assume that “the battles between the Vedic Aryans and their enemies were somehow battles between Good and Evil (…) our analysis of the Rigveda and Vedic history is not based on this rosy viewpoint” . [Talageri 2008:368] In fact, “there is nothing to indicate that the Āryas were more civilized and cultured than the Dāsas, (…) nor that the struggles between the Āryas and Dāsas involved any noble social, moral and ethical issues.” [Talageri 2000:405]".<br /><br />How exactly did anyone conclude this? By considering the Rk Veda as a history textbook that is how, if anyone wants more details please refer to the Itihaas and Puran their very names mean History and Ancient respectively.<br /><br />Are we to believe now that Indra, Agni and the many other Deva or Maruts and countless others were Puru Gods?. How do you reconcile the proposed theory with the real vacuum it creates?.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-58510101064953129392015-03-22T01:41:44.519-07:002015-03-22T01:41:44.519-07:00Thanks you Mr.Talageri for your reply. I will try ...Thanks you Mr.Talageri for your reply. I will try to find out as much as I can about your answer.<br /><br />In your reply one of the things you have said is " in I.59.2, Agni is said to be produced by the God to be a light unto the ārya, and in the sixth verse of the hymn, it is clear that the hymn is composed on behalf of the Pūrus.".<br /><br />So the Priests composed the verse on the behalf of the Puru which is clear in a particular verse. Alright but the Puru were not the only ones to have Priests. Yadu and Ikshvaku Kings also had priests, are there no verses anywhere in Rk Veda that have been composed on their behalf by their priests?.<br /><br />Also if the Veda were composed for Puru King then were there no Veda during the time of Nahusha the grand father of Puru? Were there any Veda when Yayati was a young person?. What traditions did Nahusha and Yayati follow then?. <br /><br />What traditions did the Yadu and Ikshavaku clans follow?.<br /><br />How exactly should we come to terms with the fact that the Itihaas and Purana are silent over this? They are Smriti after all.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-65900718278907905462015-03-21T20:12:15.484-07:002015-03-21T20:12:15.484-07:00Shravan Tanjore has expressed some doubts about my...Shravan Tanjore has expressed some doubts about my identification of the Vedas with the Pauravas alone. But this has been done on the basis of a complete analysis of all the data in the Rigveda, which proves this identification beyond any doubt. All this information is given in my books, and can not be reproduced here, but to cite just one point:'In a tribal sense, it clearly refers only to Pūrus: in I.59.2, Agni is said to be produced by the God to be a light unto the ārya, and in the sixth verse of the hymn, it is clear that the hymn is composed on behalf of the Pūrus. Likewise, in VII.5.6, Agni is said to drive away the Dasyus and bring forth broad light for the ārya, and in the third verse of the hymn the deed is said to be done for the Pūrus.'Shrikant Talagerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700049337974422213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-29950086265817259152015-03-20T23:03:27.960-07:002015-03-20T23:03:27.960-07:00"The one exception in the Rg-Veda where arya ..."The one exception in the Rg-Veda where arya seems to have a non-ethnic, generally moral meaning, is RV 9:63:5: krnvanto visvam aryam, “making everything arya” or “doing every arya (deed)”, usually translated as “ennobling the world”".<br /><br />See so there is a different meaning but please tell us why is this the exception?Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-88591331872405025102015-03-20T13:14:18.837-07:002015-03-20T13:14:18.837-07:00"Aryaavarta" in ManuSmriti do address a ..."Aryaavarta" in ManuSmriti do address a geographical location, right?<br /><br />Your mentioning of the word "Arya" changing its meaning South India; it has gradually changed depending on region and context. One of the South Indian language uses the word 'aiyya'. But, it is not for any particular community. It is supposed to be a respectful way of addressing a person (like 'Sir'). The 12th century vachanas say, "You reach heaven by addressing someone as aiyya. Calling disrespectfully, you will reach hell". Here, aiya can be anybody (not just Brahmin).<br />Currently, 'Aiya' is used for any one when it is used alone. (What sir = en aiyya). But more formal way (respected sir = aiya nore) is generally used for Brahmins. (These terminologies are a generation old. They are getting eroded with frequent use of English). Aniketanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09085533531037442514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-66629140015838440562015-03-20T06:05:36.924-07:002015-03-20T06:05:36.924-07:00@ Koenraad
Are you aware of the recent ancient dn...@ Koenraad<br />Are you aware of the recent ancient dna paper( the biggest of its kind yet) on Europeans which speaks of the population having'South Asian Type Ancestry' entering the Samara valley during Copper Age? ( See the Page 56-57 of the PDF file for the information)<br />http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433<br />Thank you for providing another important article:)....Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-11793578457213468492015-03-19T09:11:44.914-07:002015-03-19T09:11:44.914-07:00Are Jambavan and Jambavati Persian names?.
Then h...Are Jambavan and Jambavati Persian names?.<br /><br />Then how exactly is Jamadagni a 'Parsu' name?.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-19192301124630438762015-03-19T09:09:28.864-07:002015-03-19T09:09:28.864-07:00In my first comment I said "The Purana and It...In my first comment I said "The Purana and Ithasa also find mention in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad in Rishi Yagnavalkya's diaglogue with his Wife Maitreyi meaning these are very ancient tales". What I mean is the Purana and Itihaas are very very ancient so people should stop acting like they are comparatively recent creations. They are the store of India's History not the Veda because the Veda have a very different purpose which is Religious, the Itihaas and Purana are by their very names History and Ancient 'Tales'. Take them seriously.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-12046916421304892372015-03-19T00:38:03.591-07:002015-03-19T00:38:03.591-07:00The term Arya seems to have evolved from an Ethnic...The term Arya seems to have evolved from an Ethnic meaning to a more general meaning but how does that mean that the Veda were the composition of only the Paurava Tribe?.<br /><br />Where did the compositions of the other clans and tribes go? vanished? How come the ancient tales the Purana and Itihaas are also silent on this then?.<br /><br />As you say in your article other clans and tribes called themselves Arya like Ravana did, just because he was a Brahmin does not mean the Paurava tribe people would consider him Arya, was he or his father the priest of the Paurava tribe?. He considered himself Arya, simple. Same with Ram then.<br /><br />In his claims about Paurava Tribe with respect to composition of the Veda and regarding Parashuram has Talageri been overactive and as a result tried to play a balancing game?. It is tempting to think so in the light of hs claims.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-63615810782082491282015-03-19T00:24:01.207-07:002015-03-19T00:24:01.207-07:00Buddha was of Shakya clan which is of Ikshvaku lin...Buddha was of Shakya clan which is of Ikshvaku lineage so my question is when Buddha used the term Arya did he mean 'Arya' according to the Paurava understanding of the term or of his own Shakya or Aikshvaka understanding of the term?.<br /><br />If indeed the Veda are the creations of the Paurava tribe then they must have been a very very dominant lot in all of India during their time but is that truly so?, the Itihaas and Purana do not suggest any such dominance. Each clan 'Solar or Lunar' has had it's time at the top.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-72024330125575178032015-03-18T21:49:17.020-07:002015-03-18T21:49:17.020-07:00The Purana had how many authors exactly?. The Pura...The Purana had how many authors exactly?. The Purana are called 'Smriti' meaning from memory, what is there to be misunderstood from memory? If Parashurama was of Parsu tribe then the Purana would have explicitly 'Remembered' that to be so.<br /><br />The Purana and Ithasa also find mention in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad in Rishi Yagnavalkya's diaglogue with his Wife Maitreyi meaning these are very ancient tales. <br /><br />I know that Mr. Talageri says the name Jamadagni cannot be of Vedic origin if so what about the following names: Jahnavi, Jabali, Jagdish, Janak? not of Vedic origin?. Jambudvip? Not of Vedic origin?. Jamadgni was the son of Rishi Richik, is Richik of 'Parsu' origin? What about Bhrigu? now you may say that the Teacher of Daityas is also of Bhrigu clan but not Rishi Bhrigu himself. In the name Parashuram there are two things 'Parsu' or 'Parasu' and Ram. How did a man of the Parsu tribe get the name 'Ram'?.<br /><br />Also the Veda are the creation of Brahmin Seers (mostly) not the Paurava tribes (The Kshatriya who became a Brahmana 'Vishwamitra' was of neither the Solar Dynasty nor Lunar Dynasty), it is possible that the priests of the Paurava tribe addressed the Puru Kings with the term Arya, did not other Brahmins 'exist'? as Priests of Kings of other tribes like the Suryavanshi Kings. I find it difficult to believe that the Aikshvaka dynasty had nothing to do with the Veda as they exist. They then must have had their own scriptures but where are they? same goes for the Yadu tribes.Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-37142676054108384352015-03-17T23:53:07.617-07:002015-03-17T23:53:07.617-07:00
Forgot to mention, how is that Persian speakers a...<br />Forgot to mention, how is that Persian speakers and Zoroastrians came to wholly appropriate Arya.<br /><br />What were our guardians of Hinduism RSS/BJP/VHP doing. Simply twiddling their thumbs?<br /><br />The provincialism and short sightedness of these Hindu leaders drives me nuts<br /><br />And I cant get over my loathing for the ingrate Parsis, first they play ball with Mughals and the British and now this.ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-49458512099612755202015-03-17T23:09:45.634-07:002015-03-17T23:09:45.634-07:00Intriguing and insightful but a few caveats
Sakya...Intriguing and insightful but a few caveats<br /><br />Sakya=Saka reminds me of Pahlava=Pallava.<br /><br />Really no basis for a connection besides a similar sounding name<br /><br />As for cousin marriage, it could just be a form of clannishness common amongst mountain and desert folk.<br /><br />Like snake worship, now mostly restricted to Kerala, Karnatak and Maharashtra but was once prevalent all across India(Takshashila in todays Pakistan was a famous Naga pilgrimage centre) cousin marriage may have been more prominent.<br /><br />South Indians follow pretty much the same laws on marriage as North Indians but still often observe them in the breach.<br />Uncle and niece marriage is not approved by the scriptures but we have Brahmanical castes such as Kammas and Brahmins engaging in it in Tamil Nadu and Andhra<br /><br />According to Greek and Chinese travelers, Gangetic peoples were described as darker, taller and more courageous than Northwestern peoples.<br />Even so dark and light are relative terms and does not leave out the possibility of quite a few light skinned Gangetic types<br /><br />Today you will find many tall individuals with Iranian complexions in UP. Some of these claim Scythian origin such as Rajputs, others like Jats and Yadav are purely Vedic of Chandravanshi lineaege.<br /><br />In Bihar, the original fair skinned stock such as Nandas(the Nanda emperor mocks Chanakya for his dark skin), Mauryas, Guptas etc has largely died out due to frequent wars and emigration and is replaced by darker and shorter aboriginal tribals such as Mundas and Santhals(I think)<br /><br /><br />Just curious if you Dravidians are not Arya ,what are their origins since the implication is that they are not related to the tribals.<br /><br />My hypothesis is that early Dravidian civilization is an amalgam of Middle Eastern settlers from Mesopotamia via sea and land(thru Indus Valley, another hybrid civilization) and local Vedic stock who had settled inSouth India as early as Mahabharata.<br /><br />Hence Chola, Chera and Pandya are mentioned in that Epic. There is no pure Tamil etymology for those dynasties.<br /><br />Proto Dravidians may have imposed some aspect of their culture such as language,grand temple building, astronomy, snake worship, devdasis(seen in Babylon),amoral and ruthless warfare and blood and hero cults not to mention marriage between blood relations.<br /><br />Hence southern India which was once part of janapadas became Vratya or anarya.<br /><br />But ultimately Vedic culture prevailed again with the migration of Brahmins and Kshatriyas in the first millennium BC<br /><br />In light of all this, the fact that Manu, the progenitor of all all Vedic peoples including Solar and Lunar races hailed from the region of Dravida makes more sense.<br /><br />I would like to know your thoughts on these matters Dr Elst if you don't mind.ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.com