tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post5768333798378974098..comments2024-03-21T00:42:18.535-07:00Comments on Koenraad Elst: Sick with “identity”Koenraad Elsthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02503713923882807510noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-60367236895955302442021-11-01T03:49:02.803-07:002021-11-01T03:49:02.803-07:00thanks for this post !! Online reputation manageme...thanks for this post !! <a href="instafasto.com" rel="nofollow">Online reputation management</a> <br />shhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13137673716039137876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-44953690185139699122013-02-19T07:36:56.617-08:002013-02-19T07:36:56.617-08:00Koenraad Elst ji,
I disagree, but that disagreeme...Koenraad Elst ji,<br /><br />I disagree, but that disagreement has more to do with choice of identity rather than substance.<br /><br />A non-Bharatiya can never become a Hindu. Hindu simply means any Indian who resisted conversions to Abrahamic religions and retained their original beliefs and culture. Hindu means Indian Resistance.<br />.<br />What you speak of is White conversion to Sanatanic Dharma (SD). Anybody can convert to Sanatanic Dharma, White, African, Chinese, Aliens. No problem.<br />.<br />Many rituals however within SD are jaati or varna specific. Every Jaati which made a claim of belonging wholesale to a specific varna (naturally all nonsense) created their elaborate rituals, and these are still present as legacy. They belong to Hindu Samaj rather than to Sanatan Dharma.<br />.<br />These rituals make no sense to the Whites and they need not partake in them.<br />.<br />But otherwise the whole world of Bharatiya mythology, philosophy, places of pilgrimage, festivals, rituals, etc. are all open to Whites and others to partake in.<br />.<br />But it is important to shed the term Hindu<b>ism</b>, because that is a European prism of looking at Hindus and rather a body of study rather than the repository of self-claims by Hindus.<br /><br /><a href="http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1408758#p1408758" rel="nofollow">The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition</a>Trailer of Dharmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05308403470639916941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-52594651574920232712012-12-31T22:51:34.763-08:002012-12-31T22:51:34.763-08:00"Once again I have to quote Kunal Singhs POV-..."Once again I have to quote Kunal Singhs POV- look what happened when prophet Mohammad attained <br />siddhi(Kunal singh like me is against the revelation of HIndu mysteries to foreigners and also nicely <br />showed that indeed Mohammad had supernatural abilities but his methods and mindset was flawed which <br />led to said intolerance and cruelty of Islam)"<br /><br />So, was mohammad's sidhdhi his own or taught from outside which led to so much non-sense? Had he learnt<br />the right art of attaining sidhdhi, say from a hindu sage , wouldn't it have helped him better? ok, forget it,<br />at least your line of argument has echo in modern polity in the US: No one born outside the US can vie for its<br />president-ship !!<br />Karthikrajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171891264654103091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-57815034143548537732012-12-31T02:08:11.071-08:002012-12-31T02:08:11.071-08:00"My point was to disagree with your sculpture..."My point was to disagree with your sculpture analogy that everyone has the potential to be siddhas! <br />Of course one wouldnt know until they try!"<br />At last!, so you do admit that julia roberts types can attain sidhdhi if they 'try' in the correct way. Then<br />why prevent them from entering the hindu fold which would be the first step and the right step ?"<br /><br />Well again, she is welcome to try and achieve siddha in her faith system , i dont see why we should help her facilitate her goals within Hinduism.<br />I will just say one thing to hammer home the point about letting foreigners gain siddhi.<br />Once again I have to quote Kunal Singhs POV- look what happened when prophet Mohammad attained siddhi(Kunal singh like me is against the revelation of HIndu mysteries to foreigners and also nicely showed that indeed Mohammad had supernatural abilities but his methods and mindset was flawed which led to said intolerance and cruelty of Islam)<br /><br /><br />Yes, but their objection is to the visual idol not the verbal. We have to attack them using their own rigid <br />criteria and not by blunting it by broadening it. Ram swarup has given pretty good insights into yogic spirituality, and <br />i don't find the above explanation on idol worship convincing. I am yet to find a convincing explanation <br />which can link idol worship directly with vedhantha philosophy. I understand that there is nothing in the vedhas which<br />suggests that vedhic braahmans indulged in idol worship. Therefore i think ram swarup has tried to reconcile<br />verbal idols found in the vedhas with visual idols developed during later stages of evolution of hinduism, <br />and he has extended it to include biblical verbal idols as well. I don't know how this can succeed."<br /><br />There is circumstantial evidence to show that Vedic peopel did worship idols.<br />You should read this book "Vedic origins of Hindu iconography."<br />The details of Vastushastra (architechture) as well as the proper way of moulding sculptures(shilpastra)can be found or atleast derived from the YajurVeda.<br />Very early we see in the Ramayana, the presence of Shiva linga and large scale yagnas.<br />Either way there are good reasons for idols to be few and far between then<br />1.Whatever idols there were ,were created from the earth and not metal.Metals such as bronze came much later.<br />2.Idols are associated with large temple,this is also a recent phenomena<br />3.Yagna and havans invocation of the nature gods didnt call for the anthromorphic representation of these Vedic dieties.<br />4.Puranic hinduism which emphasised humans diefied such Rama and Krishna would require an idol or a representation thus paving the way for Puja style worship.<br /><br />In this blog itself we have seen that even the worst hindu-baiters have acknowledged the fact that hinduism<br />is peaceful due to the absence of this self-declared enemy called 'saathaan' or devil. So it is better to <br />ignore what the general public considers evilish or devilish. Ravana is neither evil nor devil. At best he <br />can described a 'raakshasa', and the worst translation of this can be 'ruffian' or 'rough-neck' who are<br />more prone to impulsive reactions than calm usage of the brain.<br /><br />I agree that the absence of devil and apocalypse is a net plus for Hinduism.However we must not ignore that while not all asuras were evil, there were evil demons and currently all the unpleasantness in the world is caused by a demon called "Kali" of Kaliyuga..not to be confused with the goddess "Kaali"<br />And we anticipate Kalki to defeat the demon and his handmaidens of chaos and ignorance(mlecchas-people of the northwest)ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-28750062272032530302012-12-28T23:10:14.621-08:002012-12-28T23:10:14.621-08:00@ysv_rao:
"Hunas,Greeks and Scythians turned ...@ysv_rao:<br />"Hunas,Greeks and Scythians turned to Hinduism usually after Hindus gave these invaders a good thrashing.<br />We didnt impose it on them,because they were barbarians and respected only strength ,they deduced that <br />Hinduism the faith of those defeated them was the superior faith".<br />Interesting point, and u may have missed some psychology here. The vanquished do not adopt the religion<br />of the victors because it is superior, but merely to save themselves some embarrassment and avoid ridicule.<br />After all, what would they praise gods for? For getting them beaten black and blue ?? In fact they<br />would be cursing their own gods for deserting them. Instead of turning atheists they have followed the dictum:<br />while in rome chant as the romans chant !!, or , if you can't fight them then join them. <br /><br />"Well yes, the Crusaders had a similar approach to defending their religion which I support.I think <br />they would appreciate arms,ammunition and money rather truck full of Gitas,but the intent is the same!"<br />Are the nigerian christians running short of these? I don't think so, plenty of christian organisations<br />are ready to help in this matter. All they need is will power and conviction. Either it is orthodox bhakthi as <br />you have said, or sheer hesitation. <br /><br />"My point was to disagree with your sculpture analogy that everyone has the potential to be siddhas! <br />Of course one wouldnt know until they try!"<br />At last!, so you do admit that julia roberts types can attain sidhdhi if they 'try' in the correct way. Then<br />why prevent them from entering the hindu fold which would be the first step and the right step ?<br /><br />"I was most impressed by Shri Ram Swarup polemic against the iconoclastic monotheist arguments.<br />He took their argument and used it against them by asking- why an idol need only be visual, even a <br />word or sound can be considered an idol? By using this very reasonable criteria all adherents of Biblical <br />faiths become idol worshippers!"<br />Yes, but their objection is to the visual idol not the verbal. We have to attack them using their own rigid <br />criteria and not by blunting it by broadening it. Ram swarup has given pretty good insights into yogic spirituality, and <br />i don't find the above explanation on idol worship convincing. I am yet to find a convincing explanation <br />which can link idol worship directly with vedhantha philosophy. I understand that there is nothing in the vedhas which<br />suggests that vedhic braahmans indulged in idol worship. Therefore i think ram swarup has tried to reconcile<br />verbal idols found in the vedhas with visual idols developed during later stages of evolution of hinduism, <br />and he has extended it to include biblical verbal idols as well. I don't know how this can succeed.<br /><br />"In that case we have to avoid the specific sections of the lake where Ravana did his darshan.To this day, <br />it is considered evil" <br />In this blog itself we have seen that even the worst hindu-baiters have acknowledged the fact that hinduism<br />is peaceful due to the absence of this self-declared enemy called 'saathaan' or devil. So it is better to <br />ignore what the general public considers evilish or devilish. Ravana is neither evil nor devil. At best he <br />can described a 'raakshasa', and the worst translation of this can be 'ruffian' or 'rough-neck' who are<br />more prone to impulsive reactions than calm usage of the brain.<br />Karthikrajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171891264654103091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-83710984166217228522012-12-25T22:29:32.670-08:002012-12-25T22:29:32.670-08:00@Venkata Raman'Yathemaam vaacham kalyaaneemaav...@Venkata Raman'Yathemaam vaacham kalyaaneemaavadaani janebhyah,<br />Brahmraajayaabhyaagvong shoodraay chaaryaay ch' svaay' chaarnaay.'<br /><br />'Appropriately I deliver this welfare speech for ALL THE PEOPLE: the intelligent ones, the politicians, the workers, the businesspersons,the self praising ones.'<br /><br />Well you had stumped with arana meaning foreigner so this got me curious about this verse and I went around looking for it.<br /><br />Turns above is an alternate translation of the same but where arana means "self praising".<br /><br />The context is that its an invocation to Saraswati ,the giver of wisdom and by invoking this verse she will enlighten the intelligent,passionate,practical,servile and braggart alike.<br /><br />Then it takes a rather different context.<br /><br />The one you provided was a neo translation by Aurobindo Ghosh who believed that Vedas were meant for foreigners and indeed his ashram is popular with Westerners.<br /><br />ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-30577777008420687362012-12-25T21:53:20.815-08:002012-12-25T21:53:20.815-08:00To my knowledge the concept of bharatvarsha was bo...To my knowledge the concept of bharatvarsha was born after <br />the vedhic periods."<br /><br />The Emperor Bharata was a contemporary of Vishwamitra so that would make him of the Vedic era.<br />However Bharat Mata is of very recent origin..probably from Bankim Chatterjees Vande Mataram.<br /><br />Funny !, how did you find out that julia roberts types were attracted to hinduism because she finds it chaotic? Did they say<br />that, or have u extrapolated this from the 'chaotic' profession they have chosen.? Even if they did, it is our job to<br />clear the chaos in their minds. "<br /><br />I would say it is not our job.<br />Julia Roberts converted to Hinduism after participating in the movie Eat Pray Love where a woman divorces her husband to travel to Italy,India and Indonesia.It is based on a incredibly stupid memoir written by a bored and silly middle aged woman.<br />It is for these reasons and more that her conversion to Hinduism was out of a belief that this faith is a morally relativisitic feel good faith unlike the stuffy "organized religions" she is brought up with.<br /><br /><br /><br />"Hinduism is not a mother to all but to a few"<br />I didn't say that, i only said that she should 'behave' like a mother to all those who take refuge. <br />"We can consider these rebellious kids after we squash their rebellion".<br />Quashing rebellions? Yee gods !! , just how ? Like the way islam does by suicide bombing ??????? You direly need to <br />reconsider your stand here, dear sir !!<br /><br />That statement was tongue in cheek.Anyway there is a method to mad statement....Hunas,Greeks and Scythians turned to Hinduism usually after Hindus gave these invaders a good thrashing.We didnt impose it on them, because they were barbarians and respected only strength ,they deduced that Hinduism the faith of those defeated them was the superior faith.<br /><br />"That is not our problem! We have enough issues than to deal with it as it is"<br />Sure is not, just allow hinduism to deal with her, no big deal i guess. What problems can she create which iskon and beatles<br />haven't created already - by your own info."<br />See above.Even if she cant create new ones, why make the same problems even more severe?<br /><br /><br />Fine, let us then fight orthodox bhakthi and propagate real bhakthi and save the bhakthaas. The terror gang Boko Haram is <br />actively purging christianity from nigeria at present. Assuming that it is orthodox bhakthi which is preventing christians<br />from retaliating, i think hindus should seriously think of promoting the sales of Bhagawadh Geetha among the chrisitians !!."<br /><br />Well yes, the Crusaders had a similar approach to defending their religion which I support.I think they would appreciate arms,ammunition and money rather truck full of Gitas,but the intent is the same!<br /><br /><br />"Not everyone is capable of siddhi even after strenuous effort.Your birth does play some part but not all."<br />Agreed, so your point is.....??? "<br /><br />My point was to disagree with your sculpture analogy that everyone has the potential to be siddhas! Of course one wouldnt know until they try!<br />Will try to study the works of Kunal singh, & i think Ram Swarup has done a fantastic job."<br /><br />Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goels passing was a great loss.<br />I was most impressed by Shri Ram Swarup polemic against the iconoclastic monotheist arguments.He took their argument and used it against them by asking- why an idol need only be visual, even a word or sound can be considered an idol?By using this very reasonable criteria all adherents of Biblical faiths become idol worshippers!<br /><br /><br />"I would actually use the Ganga metaphor to make my point not yours as the Ganga is heavily polluted! "<br />Agreed, my mistake, and good thing u pointed it out. Dust can never settle down in a flowing ganga !!!!!! Pleae allow me to <br />re-phrase : Hinduism must be like the eternal maansarovar."<br /><br />In that case we have to avoid the specific sections of the lake where Ravana did his darshan.To this day, it is considered evil.ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-82352560001151005002012-12-25T14:05:25.084-08:002012-12-25T14:05:25.084-08:00@ysv_rao: Arana does mean distant land or foreign....@ysv_rao: Arana does mean distant land or foreign. Actually, aranya itself can also mean foreign. However in the Vedas, aranya has not been used in that sense. Only as forest. Foreigner is definitely the meaning intended in the passage I quoted. Sva vs arana. The assertion that there was no concept of a nation to demarkate sva vs arana is debatable.<br />In fact Aranyavaasam is definitely not foreign to the Rishis. "Aranyedheeyeeta. tapasvi punyo bhavathi." So the assertion that forest dwellers were considered as outsiders is also debatable.Venkat Ramanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11899816268521816001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-52907164281940749962012-12-25T09:31:09.625-08:002012-12-25T09:31:09.625-08:00@ysv_rao: "I have to take issue with your tra...@ysv_rao: "I have to take issue with your translation of aranaaya as foreigner. Aranaaya means forest dweller ,<br />tribes well within the borders of Bharatavarsha."<br />ok, so which word in the vedhas refers to foreigners? If no such word can be found then Aranaaya (or is it Aaranya ?)<br />should also mean foreigners apart from forest dwellers. To my knowledge the concept of bharatvarsha was born after <br />the vedhic periods.<br /><br />"However there are those who are attracted to Hinduism BECAUSE they find it so chaotic .THese are the Julia Roberts <br />and Beatles types..best avoided."<br />Funny !, how did you find out that julia roberts types were attracted to hinduism because she finds it chaotic? Did they say<br />that, or have u extrapolated this from the 'chaotic' profession they have chosen.? Even if they did, it is our job to<br />clear the chaos in their minds. <br /><br />"Hinduism is not a mother to all but to a few"<br />I didn't say that, i only said that she should 'behave' like a mother to all those who take refuge. <br />"We can consider these rebellious kids after we squash their rebellion".<br />Quashing rebellions? Yee gods !! , just how ? Like the way islam does by suicide bombing ??????? You direly need to <br />reconsider your stand here, dear sir !!<br /><br />"That is not our problem! We have enough issues than to deal with it as it is"<br />Sure is not, just allow hinduism to deal with her, no big deal i guess. What problems can she create which iskon and beatles<br />haven't created already - by your own info.<br /><br />"Christianity could not be saved from Islam in its ancestral lands because in those areas, it was the more passive <br />Orthodox bhakthi type which believed that Islamic invasions were an act of God and it was best to submit and petition <br />the conquerors to spare the faith."<br />Fine, let us then fight orthodox bhakthi and propagate real bhakthi and save the bhakthaas. The terror gang Boko Haram is <br />actively purging christianity from nigeria at present. Assuming that it is orthodox bhakthi which is preventing christians<br />from retaliating, i think hindus should seriously think of promoting the sales of Bhagawadh Geetha among the chrisitians !!.<br /><br />"Not everyone is capable of siddhi even after strenuous effort.Your birth does play some part but not all."<br />Agreed, so your point is.....??? <br />Will try to study the works of Kunal singh, & i think Ram Swarup has done a fantastic job.<br /><br />"No need for that.Lets us simply restore Hinduism to its pristine state and that will attract respect and admiration like <br />bees to nectar"<br />I understand that it is the bees which seek out the nectar - may be for culinary delight or for mere survival. The fragrance<br />of the flower (from its petals ?) acts as the lighthouse (not attraction), guiding it to the nectar. Yes, hinduism must be <br />restored to its pristine state and we can all work towards it. But, If hinduism is the nectar , then hindus must be the <br />fragrance - ready to go with the flow (a la Billy Bob Thornton in one hollywood film) to guide the truth seekers.<br /> <br />"I would actually use the Ganga metaphor to make my point not yours as the Ganga is heavily polluted! "<br />Agreed, my mistake, and good thing u pointed it out. Dust can never settle down in a flowing ganga !!!!!! Pleae allow me to <br />re-phrase : Hinduism must be like the eternal maansarovar.Karthikrajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171891264654103091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-81992267769373629492012-12-24T23:21:17.920-08:002012-12-24T23:21:17.920-08:00Agreed that non-indians haven't contributed to...Agreed that non-indians haven't contributed to hinduism so far, but shouldn't they be allowed to do so"<br /><br />We can appreciate those like Dr Elst and David Frawley for their amazing contributions and their names should be placed alongside those of Dayanand Saraswati and Vivekananda.Contribution is one thing,acceptance is another.<br />In my view Buddhism is really not just Hinduism made palatable for foreigners but also the acceptance of foreigners made palatable for Hindus!<br />Conversion to Buddhism is a win win for foreigners and Hindus.<br /><br />Hinduism is like a mother, not a master who will take a servant only if he is worthwhile.<br />she would embrace her rebellious kids and also those who take refuge. "<br /><br />Hinduism is not a mother to all but to a few.<br />We can consider these "rebellious kids" after we squash their rebellion.<br /><br /><br />...Hinduism may actually help <br />in de-sillyfying them, who knows !!! "<br /><br /><br />That is not our problem!We have enough issues than to deal with it as it is.<br /><br />If they have spoilt hinduism, then it is because the real gurus have done nothing to prevent it. Let us do it now."<br /><br />yes.<br /><br />Agreed that hinduism has become a muddle , but it is not hopeless, because bhakthi as such is not harmful. Excessive bhakthi is.<br />Bhakthi in a way breeds loyalty. That is why majority hindus refused to convert, and preserved the religion."<br /><br />I will yield to you that Bhakti played a role in Hindus preserving their religion.But then again bhakti itself is not sufficient.Bhakti is more of fatalist religion in the mould of Calvinist or Puritan Christianity and the Russian Orthodox Church,where your actions have little bearing on your fate.<br />Christianity could not be saved from Islam in its ancestral lands because in those areas, it was the more passive Orthodox bhakti type which believed that Islamic invasions were an act of God and it was best to submit and petition the conquerors to spare the faith.<br /><br /><br />"No need for psychology, let lower castes create Siddhas.That would get Brahmans to worship them as they did with a <br />shepherd boy called Krishna". <br />Agreed, but was krishna a born sidhdha, a tutored one or a self made man ? "<br />A combination of all above.<br /><br /><br />I don't know. But most<br />common folk require a guru to become or discover the sidhdha in them. I have to recollect this wonderful dialogue from the film<br />Rambo-III, where Rambo's mentor says this to him: A sculptor doesn't create the statue, he merely chips off the blocks that were<br />covering it !!! HInduism has to provide such true sculptors who would do the chipping work to all, indians and non-indians."<br /><br /><br />Not everyone is capable of siddhi even after strenuous effort.Your birth does play some part but not all.<br /><br />I think the best explanation on siddha and Hinduism in general was given by a Kunal Singh,an Indian American of Bihari origin, on various Hindu and Indian newsgroups.You can find his thoughts in the archives<br />groups.google.com<br />type Kunal Singh Vedas or Kunal Singh Indra, siddhi,Shiva or some other Hindu term and you will come up with his amazing insights.<br />In my opinion ,hardly any Hindu gurus have as strong as insight as he does on Hinduism.<br /><br /><br />"I dont Hinduism not to be loved but respected."<br />Agreed, and love (getting to know) comes easily than respect (appreciation).<br />How would someone respect you unless he gets to know you? How would someone know you unless you open up to them? This is my point."<br /><br />No need for that.Lets us simply restore Hinduism to its pristine state and that will attract respect and admiration like bees to nectar.<br /><br />"..It is like dust sprayed on water. One needs patience for the dust to settle down and pure<br />water to emerge on top - to make it an eternal ganga, as it has been so far. "<br /><br />I would actually use the Ganga metaphor to make my point not yours as the Ganga is heavily polluted! This is how I view foreigners "contributions" to Hinduism, Dr Elst and Frawly aside.ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-46055583015039992132012-12-24T22:58:29.853-08:002012-12-24T22:58:29.853-08:00Hindu "gurus" seldom have the courage to...Hindu "gurus" seldom have the courage to mention the contributions of Hinduism before an American audience. At lease I didn't find one."<br /><br />This has not been my experience.Most gurus Ive come across which seem to cater to whites not only highlight contributions of Hindus in various fields such as astronomy,metallury,mathematics,chemistry,drama,art,architechture,engineering and what have you but also indulge in crank Arya Samaj/PN Oak type theories about how ancient Hindus used nuclear weapons,airplanes and discovered the theory of relativity!<br /><br /> They all give an impression that all that is good is from Buddhism. Thus when they talk of yoga or meditation, they market them as Buddhistic concepts! Also, most Americans seem to be comfortable with Buddha - a founder like Jesus. "<br /><br />I understand.Hinduism with its myriad of dieties is too bewildering for the average American Christian and his staid and no frills Protestantism.In those who crave Buddhism are similar to those which Dr Elst talked about-who believe that Hinduism today is all about Patanjali and Vedanta.<br /><br />However there are those who are attracted to Hinduism BECAUSE they find it so chaotic .THese are the Julia Roberts and Beatles types..best avoided.<br /><br />ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-87288937196578660022012-12-24T22:52:02.466-08:002012-12-24T22:52:02.466-08:00There are statements in the Vedas which opens door...<br />There are statements in the Vedas which opens doors to all. For example: Athaidaaneem Kalyaaneem vaacham aavadhaani janebhya:. Brahma raajanyabhyaam. Shudraaya caaryaaya ca. svaaya ca caaranaaya ca. Loosely rendered, this means : These auspicious words are for Brahmana, Kshatriya, Shudra and Aarya (Vaishya) - for our own people (svaaya ca) and for foreigners too (aranaaya ca). To me this svaaya should be read with reference to the four varnaas, as "our own" people belong to one varna or the other. "Foreginers" are *not* to be excluded just because they do not belong to one Varna or the other!"<br /><br />I have to take issue with your translation of aranaaya as foreigner. Aranaaya means forest dweller , tribes well within the borders of Bharatavarsha.<br /><br />They may outside the chaturvarna but they arenot foreigners.<br /><br />Many tribals have contributed in the Sagar Manthana due to their knowledge of herbs which was invaluable in creating Ayurvedic medicine.<br /><br />Similarly they played a big part in the Ramayana where gave provided Rama with strong logistical and tactical support due to their knowledge of the terrain.<br /><br />Even much later we see Gonds siding with Rani Durgavati to fight Akbar.<br /><br />ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-5241920835095357352012-12-24T19:34:59.081-08:002012-12-24T19:34:59.081-08:00There are statements in the Vedas which opens door...There are statements in the Vedas which opens doors to all. For example: Athaidaaneem Kalyaaneem vaacham aavadhaani janebhya:. Brahma raajanyabhyaam. Shudraaya caaryaaya ca. svaaya ca caaranaaya ca. Loosely rendered, this means : These auspicious words are for Brahmana, Kshatriya, Shudra and Aarya (Vaishya) - for our own people (svaaya ca) and for foreigners too (aranaaya ca). To me this svaaya should be read with reference to the four varnaas, as "our own" people belong to one varna or the other. "Foreginers" are *not* to be excluded just because they do not belong to one Varna or the other! So Vedas do take into consideration this basic reality and try to transcend these artificial divisions.Venkat Ramanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11899816268521816001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-72425614753080670312012-12-24T18:59:55.059-08:002012-12-24T18:59:55.059-08:00I am surprised at the outset that some Americans d...I am surprised at the outset that some Americans do get converted to Hinduism. Hindu "gurus" seldom have the courage to mention the contributions of Hinduism before an American audience. At lease I didn't find one. They all give an impression that all that is good is from Buddhism. Thus when they talk of yoga or meditation, they market them as Buddhistic concepts! Also, most Americans seem to be comfortable with Buddha - a founder like Jesus. <br /><br />So it makes sense when you say that even with all these hurdles, some Americans do convert to Hinduism because they see truth in its concepts.Venkat Ramanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11899816268521816001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-71719081410624493442012-12-24T10:52:14.088-08:002012-12-24T10:52:14.088-08:00@ysv_rao:
"dont see the contradiction.On one ...@ysv_rao:<br />"dont see the contradiction.On one hand I am talking about formely Hindu peoples who have crossed over to Islam.<br />But you are talking about foreigners who ancestors have not contributed to Bharatiya heritage".<br />Agreed that non-indians haven't contributed to hinduism so far, but shouldn't they be allowed to do so<br />in future? Hinduism is like a mother, not a master who will take a servant only if he is worthwhile.<br />she would embrace her rebellious kids and also those who take refuge. <br /><br />"Because most celebrities are silly people.Its the nature of celebrity".<br />Maybe , but i don't understand how this can be held against them in their quest for hinduism. Hinduism may actually help <br />in de-sillyfying them, who knows !!! <br /><br />"Western hippies and ISKCON types have done extensive damage to Hinduism and its image.I dont wish for any more of the same".<br />If they have spoilt hinduism, then it is because the real gurus have done nothing to prevent it. Let us do it now.<br /><br />"Chandravanshi dynasties creating great havoc in both north and south India and facilitating severely harmful <br />religious trends such as bhakti which turned Hinduism in to the hopeless muddle we know today".<br />Agreed that hinduism has become a muddle , but it is not hopeless, because bhakthi as such is not harmful. Excessive bhakthi is.<br />Bhakthi in a way breeds loyalty. That is why majority hindus refused to convert, and preserved the religion. <br /><br />"No need for psychology, let lower castes create Siddhas.That would get Brahmans to worship them as they did with a <br />shepherd boy called Krishna". <br />Agreed, but was krishna a born sidhdha, a tutored one or a self made man ? I don't know. But most<br />common folk require a guru to become or discover the sidhdha in them. I have to recollect this wonderful dialogue from the film<br />Rambo-III, where Rambo's mentor says this to him: A sculptor doesn't create the statue, he merely chips off the blocks that were<br />covering it !!! HInduism has to provide such true sculptors who would do the chipping work to all, indians and non-indians.<br /><br />"I dont Hinduism not to be loved but respected."<br />Agreed, and love (getting to know) comes easily than respect (appreciation).<br />How would someone respect you unless he gets to know you? How would someone know you unless you open up to them? This is my point.<br />Throw open hinduism to all, hi-lives or low-lives. Hindu converts are not like salt dissolving in water which changes the taste <br />and makes it undrinkable to others. It is like dust sprayed on water. One needs patience for the dust to settle down and pure<br />water to emerge on top - to make it an eternal ganga, as it has been so far. <br /><br />@windwheel:<br />"Politics is Politics, don't blame any party (except for Corruption and Hooliganism)"<br />Agreed. I am unable to make out whether DK brand anti-braahmanism is calculated hooliganism or sheer ignorant opportunism.<br />i believe it is the former. DK members went to the extent of cutting sacred threads (nick named 'cross belts' by us in our<br />friend's circle !!) in TN. After some intelligent counter attack in the press (whether muslims would keep quiet if somebody<br />toppled their skull caps ?!) these incidents died out. NOthing to worry about getting old, sir. People don't get stupid, in fact<br />they hold a wealth of knowldge. You and ysv_rao should write a book on various characters in mahabharata an ramayana. <br />For eg.: why did bhishma sideline karna ? Was it his dislike for him or was there some other reason ?Karthikrajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171891264654103091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-44812678164861999452012-12-24T04:23:30.728-08:002012-12-24T04:23:30.728-08:00Your historicist reading of Scripture is not part ...Your historicist reading of Scripture is not part of any Brahmin sampradaya-"<br /><br />Maybe that is a defect in our cultural heritage.The attention we pay to recording of history is very poor indeed compared to say Chinese or Romans.<br /><br />Its too bad my reading of history is something you found rather nonPC, well history is not politically correct.When recorded well, it should be an assortment of brutal truths about different societies..some of which endure and some dont.The Northwestern type endures....I know this is not a popular view but I really dont give a damn.<br /><br /> you have picked it up from stupid fuckwits of the Witzel type. "<br /><br />Witzel is an AIT enabler.Do I sound like an AIT guy?<br /><br /><br />You probably think Byrappa is a great historian. Why not add Kosambi to your list? These people, whatever their other accomplishments, were provincial auto-didacts inventing their own historicist 'just so' stories' in a manner unconnected with any Brahmin or Shraman sampradaya. "<br /><br />I havent examined either of them so I cant comment.<br /><br />Re the female gender- there is nothing morally superior about womanhood.We all love our mothers but they are human like everyone else with their glories and warts.<br /><br />Ive met thoroughly disagreeable women who were wonderful to their children.So I dont get your analogy in this regard.<br /><br />Women's morality stems from the culture in which they dwell.<br />Lets not fall for the women=good,men=bad type of simplistic equation.Women like men are can be angels or demons as the situation or their nature demands.<br /><br />Finally I will only say this much about many Hindus being wild about white converts.<br />This is little more than the Hindu inferiority complex vis a vis whites at work.<br />Most of these Hindus are just thrilled that these peoples (whom they consider "superior") have given their stamp of approval to their faith.<br />While I dont care for their "approval" I do care for a strong resurgent and heterodox Hindu faith that can withstand the soul crushing modernity of 21st century.<br />I dont Hinduism not to be loved but respected.<br />ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-27622017390608215502012-12-23T11:38:28.498-08:002012-12-23T11:38:28.498-08:00@Karthikrajan- Politics is Politics, don't bla...<br />@Karthikrajan- Politics is Politics, don't blame any party (except for Corruption and Hooliganism). <br />The Leftists believed 'Religion is opium of the people'- so naturally they want the number of candidates for Priesthood to continually decrease till they disappear or are just totally marginalized as a type of beggar or snake-charmer or such like hereditary and educationally backward caste.<br />Tamil Nadu welcomes anyone from any region- MGR was from Kerala, Rajnikanth is of Marathi origin- so what? I think biggest Sri Lankan Saivite sect had a white American satguru- so what? Who can say someone is 'ours' or 'not ours' on basis of birth? Gender is also not an issue. Avvaiyar is the most beloved teacher of the poor children who were not getting education and feeling left out. <br />You are a young man and can find the truth by yourself. Growing older, stupid people like me turn towards the Saints just like those poor children who could not get a place in the school.<br />God bless.windwheelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18099651877551933295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-66891217523290939782012-12-23T11:37:53.240-08:002012-12-23T11:37:53.240-08:00@Rao- 'Karna was just subscribing a long estab...@Rao- 'Karna was just subscribing a long established contempt of the Pataliputra Ayodhya belt for the Northwestern peoples.' Clearly this contempt was not shared by his biological mother or brothers.<br />If you look at Karna's speech, what you will see is that he is using a special type of imprecation used to throw of supernatural possession or the working of a virulent poison. Now we know Shalya had the property of turning anyone's aggressive power against himself- a bit like Valin, in the Ramayana. Thus the potency of Karna's imprecation is turned against himself as per Shalya's previous compact. This is Karna's moment of 'hamartia'- he misses the mark.<br />Different regions have different customs. The same Pundit who observes that Kashmiris chanted shlokas in an unpleasant fashion, never denied that Sarada herself had her abode there. <br /><br />Your historicist reading of Scripture is not part of any Brahmin sampradaya- you have picked it up from stupid fuckwits of the Witzel type. You probably think Byrappa is a great historian. Why not add Kosambi to your list? These people, whatever their other accomplishments, were provincial auto-didacts inventing their own historicist 'just so' stories' in a manner unconnected with any Brahmin or Shraman sampradaya. <br />There are plenty of stupid Brahmins who write nonsense on the internet. (I'm a Brahminbandhu btw). Matilal and Billimoria, Brahmin philosophers who got turned around at some point (vide-http://socioproctology.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/matilal) by the influence of Gayatri Spivak, are also unreliable.<br /> You write 'Draupadi due to her female nature wanted Pandavas to conduct war for sake of vengeance'- what 'female nature'? She was born from the fire sacrifice without a biological mother. Women are the fountain of Ahimsa. Lord Mahavira addresses Ahimsa as Bhagvati.<br />You are a man and I'm a man. We can insult each other as much as we like or even trade blows- so what? No one bears a grudge- it is a tamasha.<br />But why tell lies about the female sex?<br />I am not a fan of NDTV, but I had tears in my eyes listening to Smt. Meira Kumar speaking on the recent atrocity. My father, who was her boss when she was a diplomat in London, had the highest praise for her. You would never think that such a modest and hard working person was the daughter of the (then) Deputy Prime Minister.<br />What is the point of saying 'women want vengeance'- you and I probably gave trouble to our Mums either during birth or subsequently. Why have they not taken vengeance against us?<br />There is no misogyny in Brahminism. Nor is there racism or elitist attitude. Just for a joke, to add 'masala', there is no harm in indulging in outrageous claims and obscene imprecation. We are not angels, we are men.<br />Just recently, and old friend called me on skype and we started exchanging 'gali'. I saw his son come behind him grinning- I said 'better stop', he said 'no, no- he's old enough, let him learn from the Master!' But when wife came home, son gave the signal and we all began speaking very politely. That lady thinks I'm some sort of Sadhu type and that her husband only phones me to discuss Upanishads!<br />My point is that you should not be misled if you hear elderly people insulting each other- 'Gujju bastard!, "Madrasi rent-boy' etc, etc- we will shut up quickly enough if a lady comes into the room.<br />windwheelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18099651877551933295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-43433831873553175282012-12-22T11:04:55.054-08:002012-12-22T11:04:55.054-08:00Karna was the soul of generoisty- his racialist im...Karna was the soul of generoisty- his racialist imprecation of Shalya is funny but clearly it is not a model to emulate."<br /><br />Oh go easy on Karna in this matter!<br /><br />He was just subscribing a long established contempt of the Pataliputra Ayodhya belt for the Northwestern peoples. Initiated by Sagara when put many Kambojas(afghans),Madras(Punjabis and Sindhis)Sakas(proto Scythians-probably Uzbeks of that era) and Pahlavas(Persians) to the sword<br />and imposed on them humiliating conditions.<br /><br />This conflict survives to this day in the form of the conflict between Indian and Pakistan. And within India the resentment that "poorbias" (what northwesterners contemptibly refer to UP and Biharis) feel at Punjabi ,Sindhi ,Pushtun and Marwari domination of the military,economy and film industry.<br />Let us not sit here and pretend these communities achieved such predominance in a meritocratic setting!<br /><br />The Rg Veda shows Rishi Bharadwaj himself taking the help and praising one of different nation and profession. Chandogya shows that 'Brahmins' learned the true doctrine from Kshatriyas- "<br /><br />I think Brahmins learnt pretty all they know -down to their rituals and manner of clothing and grooming from Ikshvaku.<br /><br /><br />but also a plain and simple carter. If Bhagvad Gita appears to condone misogyny and casteism (I believe this is an error) "<br /><br />On first appearance, it may appear to do so but one has to remember the context of the Bhagvad Gita.<br />Draupadi due to her female nature wanted Pandavas to conduct war for sake of vengeance but what Krishna counseled was not pacifism of course but war for the right reasons.i.e. justice.And women being more emotionally prone were considered less likely to conduct policy on less basis on shastras than on emotion.<br />As for casteism, it was more a plea for social stability than entrenching bigotry.He spoke out against mixing of castes just before the advent of Kali Yuga.Perhaps he was vainly trying to avert it- he knew that any type of upheaval(good or bad) can lead to very dangerous territory.<br />witness the fate of the French,Russian,Nazi,Chinese,Iranians and various other revolutions...10s of millions dead,starvation,famine,destruction and totalitarianism.<br />He was pleading simply for thelesser evil.<br /><br /><br /><br />then Vyadha Gita shows women and even butchers as superior to Brahmin meditators"<br /><br />Indeed.But most womens siddha abilities were by proxy ....Sita was able to withstand the agni pariksha due to her proximity to Rama.Similarly Rukmini at times was considered a greater yogi than Krishna even though her penance was minimal.<br />I think it was hunters rather than butchers as they had a very physical lifestyle and had acquired to dieties as they found penance easier to conduct.<br />It was elaborating and articulating the nature of the dieties where Brahmins knowledge and analytical abilities came in handy.ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-51491281921304128002012-12-22T10:44:13.068-08:002012-12-22T10:44:13.068-08:00@ Karthikrajan Agreed that braahmans are the guard... @ Karthikrajan Agreed that braahmans are the guardians and record keepers of hinduism. In Tamilnadu itself, as far as i have seen, it looks like only the braahman community speaks pure 'Thamizh' with proper pronunciations, of course with a distinctive style, whereas other communities speak a slang variety."<br /><br />Thanks for this info.It amazes me how the DMK burnt its bridges with Brahmins when the latter wouldve able to contribute to a Tamil Renaissance.<br /><br /><br /><br /> I can sense some contradiction in your statements: u say that Elitism which prevents the return of Islamic fold back to Hinduism is bad. Aren't u doing the same thing by insisting that non-indians need not convert to hinduism ?"<br /><br />I dont see the contradiction.On one hand I am talking about formely Hindu peoples who have crossed over to Islam. But you are talking about foreigners who ancestors have not contributed to Bharatiya heritage.<br /><br /><br /> Aren't u preventing humanity from seeking the true universal religion, for whatever reason - be it spiritual or religious? "<br /><br /><br />What I am preventing humanity from is taking the sorry remains of a once glorious civilization(lets not mince words -V S Naipaul was right about India and therefore Hinduism- "a wounded civilization) and just making it worse.<br />Western hippies and ISKCON types have done extensive damage to Hinduism and its image.I dont wish for any more of the same.<br />I dont know what you mean "universal religion"....if by that you mean all religions provide a guide for good conduct in this life and path for the afterlife, then to some extent yes.<br />I also believe that Hinduism if practiced as before say 100 AD was the greatest religion and it was because it was subject to very stringent rules and criteria as to what was allowed and rejected in its corpus.<br />The decline of Hinduism started much before the arrival of Islam with Huns and Scythians masquerading as Ikshvaku and Chandravanshi dynasties creating great havoc in both north and south India and facilitating severely harmful religious trends such as bhakti which turned Hinduism in to the hopeless muddle we know today.<br /><br /><br />Let them come first, later u may impart true 'upanishadic' wisdom to them - whatever it means. why do u call celebrities like julia roberts , silly?"<br /><br />Because most celebrities are silly people.Its the nature of celebrity.<br /> Is it because of her 'lowly' profession, or has she ever spoken about hinduism like a scholar? "<br /><br />To some extent I do consider acting a "lowly" profession because they are almost cattle in the hands of the filmmaker and are told how to feel and think in various different characters.This does great damage to their own character in the long term!<br /><br />Both u, windwheel and Dr KE have a lot to offer to non-scholars like me. Polemics is acceptable but vulgar-abusive language has to be avoided. "<br /><br />I know...<br /><br /><br />@windwheel: throwing up priesthood to all castes is good no doubt, but how will that rescue religion? in the sense that why do all castes clamour for priesthood? very recently a priest from lower caste committed suicide in TN because people from other castes looked at him with disdain."<br /><br />Unfortunate but such incidents are inevitable in any type of social change where the entrenched classes feel threatened.During desegragation in Southern U.S, there were wide scale resentment and violence by whites that they had to rub elbows with blacks.In time it passed and now its obviously a non issue.<br /><br /> surely, something more has to be done to rescue religion. Hope scholars debate more on the psychology part."<br /><br />No need for psychology, let lower castes create Siddhas.That would get Brahmans to worship them as they did with a shepherd boy called Krishna.<br /><br /><br /><br />ysv_raohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078517736366792665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-12853625841816634492012-12-21T22:21:10.145-08:002012-12-21T22:21:10.145-08:00@windwheel: That was a nice elucidation on priesth...@windwheel: That was a nice elucidation on priesthood. i was under the impression that hinduism is best served if priesthood is left to the braahmans. But opening it to all communities including non-indians, would be better. i am not sure how the braahmans are responding. If there is opposition they should be gently persuaded rather than by militant aggression as shown by the DK brand politicians. Maybe then such suicides by priests of other communities can be prevented.Karthikrajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171891264654103091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-15676163476395260332012-12-20T03:54:51.877-08:002012-12-20T03:54:51.877-08:00In matters of music I may be a rasika to some exte...In matters of music I may be a rasika to some extent but I'm not a singer. I don't have that tejas. Music will die if I become the Dictator of music. However, a genuine singer will always recognize a youngster with 'tejas' regardless of his social origin. He may abuse him, as Karna was abused, he may beat or curse him, but he will never be guilty of saying 'O, that Ekalavya- no real talent. Just some monkey tricks.' You will often find so called 'rasikas' saying such things. They are the enemies of Promise.<br />Ramanujan, the mathematician, was just some small black Madrasi fellow. Prof. Hardy was not doing charity when he took him up. He spotted the 'tejas' the 'pratibha', what is called 'genius'. How could mathematics come forward if only the sons of mathematicans were considered to be fit to derive proofs and theorems?<br /><br />I don't want to paint an exaggerated picture or to mislead you according to my own ignorance. I would say that a young man like you is well able to judge things for himself. Still, I am sure, if you saw a young man like yourself who is full of 'tejas' for the priest's profession, you yourself would spontaneously go towards him.<br />In the MhB, Karna who was (falsely) insulted on account of his birth says 'those who take priest from such and such caste are the lowest of the low.' By such words, Karna undoes himself.<br />Even if one is not a Hindu but is a resident or well wisher of India, still one would wish for Hinduism to have a good and able priestly caste with high standing and good reputation- similar to Xtianity, Islam, Judaism etc. <br />India is going through huge changes which are causing a lot psychic distress. Organized Religion must play a part in finding new and innovative ways to take care of the psychic wounds of the people. See this terrible rape in New Delhi. What has caused young men to behave in such a bestial fashion? If you see the surnames- one fellow is a Brahmin, another a Thakor- they are not from history sheeter families. What caused this devilishness?<br />Of all the politicians, only Speaker of the House, Smt. Meira Kumar has shown real sensitivity on this issue. Normally, she is very quiet.<br />If this lady had chosen to be a priest rather than IFS officer or politician or whatever- how would it have hurt Hinduism?<br />I don't have the answers to these questions but I am sure the younger generation will meet this challenge and find a resolution.windwheelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18099651877551933295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-75919035201735904102012-12-20T03:53:59.368-08:002012-12-20T03:53:59.368-08:00@Karthikarajan- the Hindu priest faced a lot of pr...@Karthikarajan- the Hindu priest faced a lot of problems- some patrons were miserly and had a superiority complex, others were weak minded and inclined to spend a lot on all sorts of superstitions fancies, on top of that there was the notion that he was 'eater of sin- psychologically the position of the priest was a bad one. Under the British, the sons had some small chance to come up educationally because the wealthy classes were not interested in sending their sons for clerical work. However, the priest's position grew worse not better after Independence. Patrons became more miserly. Younger generation scoffed at them and adopted Left Wing ideology. Reservations reduced the chance for their children to come forward. The mania for 'Convent School education' meant that even if the son or daughter somehow learned English still they did not have the elite accent and outlook- only Maths or Physics or I.T offered some way out but now even those fields are too crowded. <br />The priests are not all demoralized but the numbers are dropping. Lower availability of priests tends to lead to lower demand for priestly services- people substitute Temple visit or visit to teerth for the traditional rituals.<br />The first step to restore the position of priests is to show that it is a field of excellence, not just some old mumbo jumbo handed down from father to son. Where there is free competition, people become more spirited and have a determination to excel. Obviously, if I see a priest from some different community- say if the son of a big Industrialist becomes a priest, or if the son of a low class drunkard becomes a priest- I will say to myself, there must be something special in him which led to his choice of profession. But where does that 'specialness' come from? Must be God, not heredity. So my attitude to this priest will be different from if I think 'this is our family priest, once a year he comes round to change our sacred thread. It is a nuisance simply.'<br />The parent's attitude will influence the children. They will think 'Hindu priests are lazy or stupid fellows who are still following their ancestral vocation. Be miserly towards them. They are nothing but licensed beggars.'<br />This attitude causes the death of Religion and the cult of bogus Godmen and Godwomen who claim to be God but indulge in perverted sex and hoarding black money. If a boy or girl has true 'tejas' and is attracted to this line, let him or her come up- take proper Certification and receive proper respect of the community.<br />I am very sorry to hear about the suicide of the priest you mention. Such a thing is very inauspicious and bodes ill for younger generation. However, the great people of Tamil Nadu will never permit such a sacrifice to go in vain. Some years ago the Bishop of the Christians in Pakistan committed suicide to protest the escalating violence against his people. Rather than weakening his people, it showed them they had to stand up for themselves and it drew attention to their plight.<br />In T.N, there is an economic issue- better prospects for agricultural labor is putting the squeeze on the dominant castes. They think that by humiliating the workers they will destroy their spirit and thus they will work for the old wages. Such a view is simply mad. People will run away to the Cities. Economics has its own laws.<br />My grandfather was a Trade Union leader during the British Raj. Labor made a lot of progress, especially during the War. But this caused jealousy and the feeling that 'lower castes are getting arrogant'. Chief Minister Prakasam proposed destroying the Textile Mills! Why? Because if landless laborers can go to work in the mills for good wages, who will do the work on the zamindar's fields. I'm no friend of Communism, but on this occasion they were right to resist Prakasam.<br />windwheelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18099651877551933295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-59360265356334703162012-12-20T03:02:07.778-08:002012-12-20T03:02:07.778-08:00@ysv_rao: Agreed that braahmans are the guardians ...@ysv_rao: Agreed that braahmans are the guardians and record keepers of hinduism. In Tamilnadu itself, as far as i have seen, it looks like only the braahman community speaks pure 'Thamizh' with proper pronunciations, of course with a distinctive style, whereas other communities speak a slang variety. I can sense some contradiction in your statements: u say that Elitism which prevents the return of Islamic fold back to Hinduism is bad. Aren't u doing the same thing by insisting that non-indians need not convert to hinduism ? Aren't u preventing humanity from seeking the true universal religion, for whatever reason - be it spiritual or religious? Let them come first, later u may impart true 'upanishadic' wisdom to them - whatever it means. why do u call celebrities like julia roberts , silly? Is it because of her 'lowly' profession, or has she ever spoken about hinduism like a scholar? <br />Both u, windwheel and Dr KE have a lot to offer to non-scholars like me. Polemics is acceptable but vulgar-abusive language has to be avoided. <br />@windwheel: throwing up priesthood to all castes is good no doubt, but how will that rescue religion? in the sense that why do all castes clamour for priesthood? very recently a priest from lower caste committed suicide in TN because people from other castes looked at him with disdain. surely, something more has to be done to rescue religion. Hope scholars debate more on the psychology part.Karthikrajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171891264654103091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-13310520754142640772012-12-19T03:19:51.985-08:002012-12-19T03:19:51.985-08:00There are examples of purely Imperial religions- R...There are examples of purely Imperial religions- Roman God-Emperors including two of Semitic origin- and Theocratic states but Christianity and Islam, in their origin, were nothing of the sort. People like Witzel and Pollock appear to be trying to cast Hinduism in this mould but can't demonstrate that an incentive mechanism for this to happen existed. Now Iran has a very different geography militating for synoecism in Religion and a centralized priestly/bureaucratic caste. This is associated with the deliberate restriction on Pehlevi literacy. Nothing remotely like that ever existed in India. Ipseity and alterity tend to be the opposite sides of the same coin in all Indic traditions. Multiple alleigances tend to be the rule rather than the exception. Ritual specialists exist in all castes.If Tamil Brahmins have some Skt. so do Valluvars- priests to the 'Pariah'community. The Doms of Benares are described as wealthy and of good physique whereas the Brahmins were poor and emaciated. Casteist or Regionalist chauvinism is quite harmless and entertaining when it is restricted to comic jibes and scurrilous repartee. Karna was the soul of generoisty- his racialist imprecation of Shalya is funny but clearly it is not a model to emulate.<br />No doubt, as kids, parents or teachers may say 'this is our tradition- follow it and don't imitate the traditions of those others.' This could give rise to the feeling that our tradition is superior or their tradition is somehow ridiculous or disgusting. However, as one grows up, one rises above this childish 'heteronomy' and seeks for universal principles.<br />The Rg Veda shows Rishi Bharadwaj himself taking the help and praising one of different nation and profession. Chandogya shows that 'Brahmins' learned the true doctrine from Kshatriyas- but also a plain and simple carter. If Bhagvad Gita appears to condone misogyny and casteism (I believe this is an error) then Vyadha Gita shows women and even butchers as superior to Brahmin meditators<br />This Deepak Sarma may be sincere in his devotion to Madhva parampara and it is true that to keep their doctrine pure (especially when Advaita was considered the most prestigious) they may have said something like 'look this is the tradition of our ancestors. So we must preserve it.'<br />However, there is no danger now to that parampara and so no need for exlusivism. Maybe with Zoroastrianism there was such a need- but even they are contemplating dropping exclusivism because of the great advance in education and availability of multi=media and Web based resources such that the non Parsi spouse can remain true to the tradition and not accidentally introduce innovations.<br />Back in the Sixties and Seventies there was some fear that if the Beatles start playing sitar, our parampara will be destroyed, or if some African, like Swami Ghanananda, or American, like David Frawley, learns our scriptures then they will just turn it into some mumbo jumbo or boogie woogie. <br />In fact no such thing occurred. <br />Actually, we used to have plenty of prejudices within India itself. I remember one young shop keeper in Connaught place telling me 'you should go to Swami Narayan temple easily reachable on Metro. One thing- it is very clean, those people are from Gujerat, but still it is very good. You will like'.<br />The funny thing is I understood what he meant. 'it is very clean but still good'<br />I no longer remember my College days at all clearly. There was one young fellow called M.K. Gandhi. Terrible hooligan. Dadhabhai Naorojee used to beat him unmercifully.<br />I was in love with a girl called Sarojini but she went and married some Naidu fellow.<br />I wonder what happened to all those friends of my youth? <br /><br />windwheelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18099651877551933295noreply@blogger.com