tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post7291044480459424032..comments2024-03-21T00:42:18.535-07:00Comments on Koenraad Elst: Was the Buddha a Hindu? Are Buddhists Hindus? Koenraad Elsthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02503713923882807510noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-51610071334280696702018-02-26T02:56:11.290-08:002018-02-26T02:56:11.290-08:00(1) The master finished this discourse and the bir...(1) The master finished this discourse and the birth was identified: <br /><br />... At that time the king of Suddhana was king of Dasaratha, Mahamma was the mother, the mother of Rahula, Ananda was Bharata, and I myself was Rama-Pasha "(pundit-scientist) <br /><br />-Dasharat Jataka, number 461 <br />https://goo.gl/LBnxFv<br /><br />(2) The Lankawatar Sutra <br />http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-nondiacritical.htm<br /><br />(3) The ascent of Buddha to Awakening was predetermined by the physical signs with which he was born, according to his disciples. Buddhist scripture makes the most of the noble birth of the Buddha in the Solar Line, as a relative of Rama. The Buddha himself claimed that he was the reincarnation of Rama, in the Buddhist retelling of the Ramayana in jataka. He also became like the mighty Vishnu. Later Hindus consider Rama and Buddha as the incarnations of Vishnu, but the Buddha began all this by affirming Reincarnation of Rama. <br /><br />(4) Thai and Indonesian Buddhists adopted Rama's culture, which the Buddha did not really worship, but whom he revered as the great offspring of the Aikshwaku line to which he belonged, and whom he claimed to be reincarnation. <br />Vedant Madanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07861806566203529108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-8471506033743854632016-11-27T05:44:19.664-08:002016-11-27T05:44:19.664-08:00nice post! you have provide excellent information,...nice post! you have provide excellent information, can you please provide <a href="http://www.hinduismabout.com/2015/06/lingashtakam.html" rel="nofollow">lingashtakam</a> lyrics in english which will be chanted in favour of lord shiva.Dineshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12564856901471652300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-77476877050124237762016-07-05T09:33:48.125-07:002016-07-05T09:33:48.125-07:00Sir When did Buddha say that Rama and he were the ...Sir When did Buddha say that Rama and he were the same person? Any proofs?koravisirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16570440450969814050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-53611062318990949502016-06-15T08:03:12.110-07:002016-06-15T08:03:12.110-07:00Excellent write up but have one question - While a...Excellent write up but have one question - While all of earlier masters were absorbed in to Upanishads and "Hindu" society, why did Buddha become very prominent that lead to sect and later gain religious status?qahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17934430285031307591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-20857479600983822342014-01-15T10:17:23.376-08:002014-01-15T10:17:23.376-08:00The only reason for prevalence of SATI among rajpu...The only reason for prevalence of SATI among rajput kshatriyas was the "Rape, Loot, Pillage" policy of Muslim invaders in 10th century. By the time of British colonisation it had taken a life of its own as a societal vice!!!H Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09182698996847012504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-18395439476792697932013-12-11T08:55:06.166-08:002013-12-11T08:55:06.166-08:00And also:
""Then again, the disciple of...And also:<br /><br />""Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is declared to be the practice conducive to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.<br /><br />When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One: "There is the case, lord, where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me;[2] it will not be, it will not occur to me.[3] What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. Now, would this monk be totally unbound, or not?"<br /><br />"A certain such monk might, Ananda, and another might not.'<br /><br />"What is the cause, what is the reason, whereby one might and another might not?"<br /><br />"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way — (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."<br /><br />"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"<br /><br />"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.""<br /><br />http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14959009768701742395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-35917723010909547452013-12-11T08:47:13.446-08:002013-12-11T08:47:13.446-08:00"Swami Vivekananda has also frequently assert..."Swami Vivekananda has also frequently asserted the Buddha taught the Dharma preached in the Upanishads."<br /><br />Uhh...gotta say you're wrong on that one. Vivekananda and Elst aren't really well-schooled in Buddhism. Buddha the central idea in the Upanishads and said they don't go far enough. They confuse the "arupa jhanas" with "enlightenment:"<br /><br />"Now, of these ten totalities, this is supreme: when one perceives the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior."<br /><br />http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.html<br /><br />"Although at present we rarely think in the same terms as the Samkhya philosophers, there has long been — and still is — a common tendency to create a "Buddhist" metaphysics in which the experience of emptiness, the Unconditioned, the Dharma-body, Buddha-nature, rigpa, etc., is said to function as the ground of being from which the "All" — the entirety of our sensory & mental experience — is said to spring and to which we return when we meditate. Some people think that these theories are the inventions of scholars without any direct meditative experience, but actually they have most often originated among meditators, who label (or in the words of the discourse, "perceive") a particular meditative experience as the ultimate goal, identify with it in a subtle way (as when we are told that "we are the knowing"), and then view that level of experience as the ground of being out of which all other experience comes.<br /><br />Any teaching that follows these lines would be subject to the same criticism that the Buddha directed against the monks who first heard this discourse."<br /><br />http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html<br /><br /><br />This gets into highly complex and advanced forms of Buddhist theory (i.e. craving for non-becoming), but variations on the "neti-neti" doctrine don't lead to "enlightenment" by themselves either:<br /><br />"[8] "The supreme view-point external [to the Dhamma] is this: 'I should not be; it should not occur to me; I will not be; it will not occur to me.' Of one with this view it may be expected that '[the perception of] unloathsomeness of becoming will not occur to him, and [the perception of] loathsomeness of the cessation of becoming will not occur to him.' And there are beings who have this view. Yet even in the beings who have this view there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior."<br /><br />http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.html<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14959009768701742395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-58452434758908296352013-11-04T23:30:31.043-08:002013-11-04T23:30:31.043-08:00Regardless of whether the Buddha rejected traditio...Regardless of whether the Buddha rejected tradition or not, the religion he 'founded' has now assumed a life of its own distinct from Hinduism. Buddhism is not Hinduism. Burma expelled one million Hindus in the early 1960s. Bhutan expelled one hundred thousand Nepalese Hindus in the 1990s. Sri Lanka has had a problem with its Tamil Hindu minority, one fueled by the intransigence of its Buddhist monks. Nepalese Buddhist had traditionally supported Maoist efforts to roll back state sponsorship of Hinduism. The neo-Buddhists in India are vehemently anti Hindu. So Buddhism has assumed a life of its own and often takes on a very anti Hindu stand in the political sphere while continuing to worship and venerate Hindu gods in Nepal, Sri Lanka, Thailand etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-67793976369897184032013-11-04T09:27:28.910-08:002013-11-04T09:27:28.910-08:00@Balan Kesavan - Neither KE in his post, nor schol...@Balan Kesavan - Neither KE in his post, nor scholars of Buddhism or Hinduism conclude, or argue, A = B = C = X = Y = Z.<br /><br />The question, 'was Buddha a Hindu? are Buddhists Hindus?' does not necessarily mean Hinduism = Buddhism. If you like math symbols, then look into concepts of subset, superset and Jaccard index. What is the Jaccard index between Buddhism and Hinduism? Is it higher than the Jaccard index between Buddhism and any other major religion of our world?<br /><br />We all know what China did in Tibet, how Buddhist leaders fled, and where they landed. We also know what Islam and Taliban did to Buddhism from Persia to Afghanistan. These facts are easy to verify.<br /><br />Out of compassion, out of metta to understand history, humanity and our own selves, our goal, our ambition and our efforts must be directed to objectively seek data and meditate on what Hinduism is? what Buddhism is? where are the overlaps, where are the differences, why, how, when? and what evidence is out there to enlighten us in this effort?<br /><br />From the little I know, Buddhism has its roots in Hinduism, refines ideas of Hinduism, just like Jainism refines ideas of ahimsa from Hinduism to another level.<br /><br />No serious Buddhist scholar can claim he knows everything about Buddhism there is, 100%? But then, no serious Buddhist scholar can claim or should pretend he knows everything about Hinduism there is, 100%? Even Hinduism scholars are, at their best, on a journey of understanding what Hinduism was, has been and is? Do we really know? And how do we know?<br /><br />Stereotypes and bashing Hinduism or any-ism is not the path to metta, compassion or enlightenment.Americanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687845102811849258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-52764326598252945632013-11-04T02:02:41.751-08:002013-11-04T02:02:41.751-08:00@XXX
ye.... it is a miraculous, your finding to ...@XXX<br /><br /> ye.... it is a miraculous, your finding to blame Buddhism! Waste of many century! india with 90% ( Hon. Katju) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08230125389418859853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-90422988402282436762013-11-03T11:01:06.812-08:002013-11-03T11:01:06.812-08:00Sir you a=have written some very good essays on th...Sir you a=have written some very good essays on the questions of 'Are Buddhists and Sikhs Hindus'? What do you have to say about Jains? Shravan Tanjorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17298451633247843496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-24027975807020371802013-11-01T11:46:25.428-07:002013-11-01T11:46:25.428-07:00@Balan kesavan. Yes you are correct. I concur .Th...@Balan kesavan. Yes you are correct. I concur .The one and only rational preaching is buddha's teaching .<br /><br />So rational that buddha offered a discount of 'nirvana in seven days ' to whomsoever joined his cult. So rational that he labelled all his critics 'stupid and foolish' <br /><br />@hari--- brahmins were known by other names such as 'vipra, usij , hotra , atharvan etc..,. in the rgvedaxxxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13337569447024156391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-64126559916700062322013-10-31T22:07:10.404-07:002013-10-31T22:07:10.404-07:00Yes you are correct, Ancient Egyptian Religion= ...Yes you are correct, Ancient Egyptian Religion= Hinduism= Buddhism, and these all equal to Neanderthals cult and primitive Ape cult and etc... useless arguments, which is try to hide the uniqueness and speciality and rationality of each of those with others. Simply fooling the masses, The one and only rational preaching is buddhas teaching, you people try to paint it with drainage waste! <br /><br />http://history-of-hinduism.blogspot.in/2010/07/hinduism-and-ancient-egyptian-religion.html<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08230125389418859853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-66113741585641777512013-10-31T08:59:28.577-07:002013-10-31T08:59:28.577-07:00@Hari:
Let's call the Rg-Veda "proto-Bra...@Hari:<br /><br />Let's call the Rg-Veda "proto-Brahminical". The Brahmins as a caste are not mentioned yet, but virtually all the text-composing in India was done by Brahmins, and Brahmins today trace their lineage to the Rg-Vedic rishis: Bhargava < Bhrgu etc.Koenraad Elsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02503713923882807510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-21096912937517296222013-10-29T22:18:52.000-07:002013-10-29T22:18:52.000-07:00If Mr Iyer alludes to 'non-hindu' nature o...If Mr Iyer alludes to 'non-hindu' nature of Buddha and sakyas by citing their inbreeding , he must answer how his very vedic south Indian brahmin tribe ended up retaining cousin marriages. Let us remember that this is the very south India where even a cat knows 'yajurveda' , thanks to taittiriya shakha . Brahmanical(both vedic and puranic) religion allowed foreign tribes to retain their norms even after they came under the fold.gurpreet singhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16416280118584961115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-82568493462770793862013-10-29T09:13:48.142-07:002013-10-29T09:13:48.142-07:00Sir,
Thanks for an excellent post.
"Widow s...Sir,<br /><br />Thanks for an excellent post.<br /><br />"Widow self-immolation (sati) is forbidden in Brahmanical writings since the Rg-Veda,... "<br /><br />Sir, are you suggesting that Rg-Veda is a Brahmanical writing?<br /><br />This question is no way related to this post, but I want to get it clarified. Please advise.<br /><br />Thanks.Harihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12436380264110136393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-25025113784264056412013-10-29T08:03:09.330-07:002013-10-29T08:03:09.330-07:00Sir,
Stellar analysis ! , You have excelled in th...Sir, <br />Stellar analysis ! , You have excelled in the art of hitting the nail plum on its head. <br />your previous posts were quite useful to people like me who were wondering what the various hindu scriptures were all about. <br />But did the south indian kings invite vedhic tradition as a matter of prestige ? To impress whom ? It appears that these kings , not brainier like the braahamans , were over awed by the sophistication found in their vedhic chants and theory and believed that this tradition could genuinely invoke the grace of the gods to ward-off all evils. <br />Your top-to-bottom percolation theory regarding language in previous post quite explains sanskrit words in tamil. In their awe, tamils readily accepted sanskrit words to put themselves or par with braahmans, but quietly rejected the difficult aspirated syllables of sanskrit. Is this some kind of skepticism or sheer laziness ? <br />Regarding Ambedkar, hindus must have heaved a collective sigh of relief when he switched over to budhdhism. It would have been disastrous for hindus if he had opted for islam or churchianity. <br />I wish you would write soon on the 'idolatry' nonsense being hurled at hinduism by the evangelical clowns. Somehow i fail to understand what this charge is all about. Karthikrajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171891264654103091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-18768184902301521422013-10-28T12:28:55.002-07:002013-10-28T12:28:55.002-07:00wonderful post sir as always, anti hindu polemicis...wonderful post sir as always, anti hindu polemicists like the ones above & others take a presumed notion and then search for arguments in their defence.Therfore while sometimes they cry about shartas not being old enough and all and now using shastraas to defend their argument.U addresed them politely while calmly refuting their claims.Looking forward to more good posts<br />Yashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04654832444772868515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-92228330748777227742013-10-28T00:18:10.699-07:002013-10-28T00:18:10.699-07:00Great post sir. The questions were quite silly in ...Great post sir. The questions were quite silly in a way, but they are very prevalent and reflective of the common Hindu mind. You have taken them seriously and gave precise and enlightening answers. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-72596272708263799212013-10-27T11:35:55.632-07:002013-10-27T11:35:55.632-07:00KE, Additional independent evidence that support y...KE, Additional independent evidence that support your response can be found in Java and Bali Indonesia. Buddhism, in many older temples near Yogyakarta, Java for example is represented as a sect of Hinduism, Buddha as an incarnation of Vishnu, and quite a few Buddhist-Hindu temples are fused. For example, on of the oldest temples near Borobudur has Buddha inside, Hindu god such as Siva with his trisul (sp?) and rest carved outside.<br /><br />The 9th century Borobudur is the largest ancient Buddhist temple, of course - and it is distinctly Mahayana, with primarily Indian faces, form and design. But other temples, including some temples in the Candi Prambanan complex treat Buddhism as a sect of Hinduism.<br /><br />This is important because Indonesian temples are an export of Indian spirituality, and one should expect that this export to a distant land would try to represent, to one's best abilities, the core beliefs back then about Hinduism and Buddhism; as well discard any inadvertent influences that may persist in North India from inertia and ambient evolution in beliefs.<br /><br />Your questioning of the questions is on the mark; for example, the 'changing definition' or using modern day attempts to cage and misrepresent Hinduism by re-re-defining Hinduism to suit one's best interest. A neutral, objective understanding of Hinduism would start from verifiable facts and comprehensive study of ancient scripts on Hinduism, from India, from Cambodia, from Indonesia, and so on; and it would not start from a biased presumed theory followed by demand to fit data to their theories and prejudiced assumptions.Americanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687845102811849258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-17908799983647663412013-10-26T19:45:24.712-07:002013-10-26T19:45:24.712-07:00Great responses by KE.
Thank you for giving me an...Great responses by KE.<br /><br />Thank you for giving me an aahaa! moment. For a while now, I have been wondering 'why Brahmins, why did ancient Hindu society create and sustain a class of priestly people called Brahmins?'<br /><br />The answer may very well be, at least in part, that low cost technology and widely available tools for rapid writing had not yet come to India, or at least proliferated to a point when knowledge could be discovered, retained and transferred from one generation to next.<br /><br />In absence of such a technology, a spiritual society would need people with ability to learn, memorize, comprehend, orally transmit, store and inter-generationally transfer knowledge. The work of books, libraries and data storage hard drives had to be done by the human mind. That is an intense effort, perhaps full time, life long - for the teacher, for the next generation. These people naturally then would evolve into a distinct social group with a necessary social function - so called, the brahmins. <br /><br />Even when lower cost, more accessible writing technology arrived and scribes multiplied, the debate, disagreements, consensus and new knowledge would continue to proliferate - continuing a need for those whose job was to wrestle with moral questions, with questions about ethics, about values, about spirituality. And while they do so, society must also produce food, clothing, and productively create and distribute other basic necessities of life.<br /><br />Society may have evolved into a structure of caste/class, out of necessity, to compensate for ambient technology, missing tools, and evolving constraints.<br /><br />That explains why neither the ancient scripts, nor eyewitness accounts of Greek visitors with Alexander to Persian Al Biruni in 11th century AD painted India as a country of social inequality like the way British colonial census did or orientalist/revisionist do. That also explains why Hindus in Bali, Indonesia never had the ills alleged in Hinduism by modern revisionists.<br /><br />One of the easiest mistake we can make is to examine the development of an open, free and introspective society such as Hindus over its history, from contemporary assumptions, structure, technology, tools and perspective. Same is true for Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism or any other -isms.Americanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687845102811849258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-16446731529970592742013-10-26T12:59:46.167-07:002013-10-26T12:59:46.167-07:00Pretty forthright & well quoted as usual. Than...Pretty forthright & well quoted as usual. Thanks!Karigarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05382763889918813247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-6713742874292902912013-10-26T06:52:39.444-07:002013-10-26T06:52:39.444-07:00Modern scholars, particularly the lefitst liberal ...Modern scholars, particularly the lefitst liberal scholars and neo-buddhists try to make a social reformer out of the Buddha. In reality, he as a traditionalist. Reading of some of the suttas of Suttanipata shows that this is a wrong perception. A reading of Ambshta Sutta shows his defence of caste system and superiority of Kshatriyas over Brahmins.Gururaj B Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03964816448433835494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-76879716872403716202013-10-26T06:48:56.677-07:002013-10-26T06:48:56.677-07:00Excellent rebuttal to the confused and mixed up qu...Excellent rebuttal to the confused and mixed up questions posed by the challengers. The questions smack of intolerance, while the answers display patience and learning. Dr. Koenraad Elst has been the best intellectual kshatriya for Hindu case during the last two decades. Swami Vivekananda has also frequently asserted the Buddha taught the Dharma preached in the Upanishads.Gururaj B Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03964816448433835494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-18127072127363456612013-10-26T06:28:24.314-07:002013-10-26T06:28:24.314-07:00It is impossible to understand the Buddha's te...It is impossible to understand the Buddha's teachings without appreciating the fact that he was part of an already ancient spiritual tradition. If, instead, we see him as someone who renounced existing traditions in order to found a "new" religion, then we are no longer talking about the Buddhadharma, rather we are talking about a projection of the Christian mind.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.com