tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post3579359874795319813..comments2024-03-09T00:17:39.600-08:00Comments on Koenraad Elst: Eminent historians displeased with the Ayodhya verdictKoenraad Elsthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02503713923882807510noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-64824365166258170792022-08-17T04:03:04.916-07:002022-08-17T04:03:04.916-07:00Ground Penetrating Radar Survey in Delhi=It is a g...<br /><a href="https://shijayprojects.com/service" rel="nofollow">Ground Penetrating Radar Survey in Delhi</a>=It is a ground penetrating radar survey which is done with the help of a ground penetrating radar instrument. The ground penetrating radar survey can help find lost graves and other places where valuable resources are buried. It can also help find out buried humans and their resources who may have been buried in the past.<br />Shijayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06679074461957820243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-31316991362279496902016-09-15T23:08:32.006-07:002016-09-15T23:08:32.006-07:00I am quite unsatisfied by the distinctions between...I am quite <a href="http://www.ufgop.org/pdf/unsatisfied" rel="nofollow">unsatisfied</a> by the distinctions between the oral and literate. See the link below for more info. <br /><br />#unsatisfied<br />www.ufgop.orgAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07720547920308398294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-15564170546106962192010-10-22T23:41:11.303-07:002010-10-22T23:41:11.303-07:00Bickering Not only for this so called Babri masji...Bickering Not only for this so called Babri masjid /Janmasthan masjid in ayodya, other famous buildings like qutab minar, Taj Mahal etc There is a skepticism about shahjahan's or qutabuddin's authorship of this buildings.<br /><br />The Story that Shahjahan built taj for her wife's Tomb is a fairy tale cooked by mongals / mughal invaders for cover up.<br />Fact is,<br />1) Taj predates shahjahan by several centuries, he just acquired it from its previous owner(Rajputs)<br />2)Taj Mahal is originally a ancient Hindu temple palace called tejo mahalay built by Hindus for Demigod Shiva<br />I think<br />The whole world is duped about the origins of Taj, Indian history has been looted, taj history has been looted by muslim barbarian invader thieves<br /><br />remember<br />HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THOSE WHO HAVE WON WARS & WHO HOLD POWER<br /><br />seriously, some international body has to investigate the origins of these ancient buildings<br /><br />(To know more about this controversy & for photographic evidence<br />just google<br />TAJ MAHAL WAS IT A VEDIC TEMPLE)<br />History is no history if it does not tells the truthSathuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661336641698299969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-67750305231404999362010-10-09T10:03:22.318-07:002010-10-09T10:03:22.318-07:00http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/How-Allah...http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/How-Allahabad-HC-exposed-experts-espousing-Masjid-cause/articleshow/6716643.cmsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-90842211971196588772010-10-09T03:56:45.568-07:002010-10-09T03:56:45.568-07:00Till moments before the verdict the usual seculari...Till moments before the verdict the usual secularists brigade was strutting with confidence in the belief that the courts would not dare to give a verdict against the mosque. Now that it has their rantings and ravings have started.Their refrain is that the verdict is based on faith rather than facts and points of law. It was certainly a reference before the court to adjudicate upon whether the mosque stood on the ruins of a previous structure. The ASI findings have proved beyond doubt that there was a previously existing structure and from the artifacts recovered from the site it was a non muslim structure.The preponderence of probability, which is a sound principle of civil jurisprudence, vindictes what the Hindus have been saying all along .If so then how the judgement can be faulted on this ground. The only take from this whole episode is that Hindus have been and always remain loosers. They lost political power to muslims in 11th century and have never regained it ever since. The modern day Jaychands will never let that happen. In a democratic polity the power rests with the majority with due protection of the minority interests. But in India this principle has ben turned on its head by rampant minorityism. The wishes and feelings of majority can be trampled underfoot and ignored with impunity in the secure knowledge that the minority vote banks will deliver power to the ones who most stridently champion their cause. The majority because of division in its ranks can do little but wring its hands in dismay. I agree with Elst that the Supreme Court may be intimidated into overturning the judgement of the HC by vociferous Hindu hating and muslim hugging secular brigade.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05435537303017946632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-4454744111204971392010-10-09T00:53:34.932-07:002010-10-09T00:53:34.932-07:00Justice Sudhir Agarwal who put their claims to ext...Justice Sudhir Agarwal who put their claims to extended judicial scrutiny. Before the ASI excavations, they said there was no temple beneath the mosque and, after the site had been dug up, they claimed what was unearthed was a mosque or a stupa. <br />To the court's astonishment, some who had written signed articles and issued pamphlets, found themselves withering under scrutiny and the judge said they were displaying an "ostrich-like attitude" to facts. "Normally, courts do not make adverse comments on the deposition of a witness and suffice it to consider whether it is credible or not, but we find it difficult to resist ourselves in this particular case considering the sensitivity and nature of dispute and also the reckless and irresponsible kind of statements..." the judge has noted.<br /><br /><br /><br />He said opinions had been offered without making a proper investigation, research or study in the subject. The judge said he was "startled and puzzled" by contradictory statements. When expert witness Suraj Bhan deposed on the Babri mosque, the weight of his evidence was contradicted by anotherexpert for Muslim parties, Shirin Musavi, who told the court that Bhan "is an archaeologist and not an expert on medieval history".<br />Archaeologist Shereen F Ratnagar has written the "introduction" to the book of another expert who deposed, Professor Mandal. She admitted she had no field experience.<br /><br /><br /><br />He also pointed out how the independent witnesses were all connected —one had done a PhD under the other, another had contributed an article to a book penned by a witness.<br /><br /><br /><br />Some instances underlined by the judge are: Suvira Jaiswal deposed "whatever knowledge I gained with respect<br /><br />to disputed site is based on newspaper reports or what others told" (other experts). She said she prepared a report on the Babri dispute "after reading newspaper reports and on basis of discussions with medieval history expert in my department." Supriya Verma, another expert who challenged the ASI excavations, had not<br /><br />read the ground penetration radar survey report that led the court to order an excavation. She did her PhD under another expert Shireen F Ratnagar.<br /><br /><br /><br />Verma and Jaya Menon alleged that pillar bases at the excavated site had been planted but HC found they were not present at the time the actual excavation took place.<br /><br /><br /><br />Archaeologist Shereen F Ratnagar has written the "introduction" to the book of another expert who deposed, Professor Mandal. She admitted she had no field experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-24316777770173473812010-10-08T23:06:13.932-07:002010-10-08T23:06:13.932-07:00Sir,
You are right.History will not forgive these...Sir,<br /><br />You are right.History will not forgive these historians.You are also right about matters of faith.For Hindus, Ayodhya has been sacred, since the time of lord Rama.Muslims can't have such claims on Ayodhya or any such Hindu places of pilgrimage.This simple fact is being overlooked by all.Including muslim leadership.It will be wise for muslims of the subcontinent to voluntarily hand over the entire site to Hindus.That will put an end to this long festering issue.Appeals by RSS and other Hindu organisations to muslims are along this line.This can help all of us begin a new chapter in our history.It can also result in unemployment of the few.Belonging to secular extreme.Jitendra Desaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16086127804384631192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-12491551727066936092010-10-08T09:15:19.296-07:002010-10-08T09:15:19.296-07:00About Hindus eating beef, the word used in the ver...About Hindus eating beef, the word used in the verse is 'MAHISHA' that means buffalo.(Agni cooking for his friend Indra) No where it is mentioned in Rig Veda that cows were killed for consumption.jlmalhotrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11711967122634272149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-38800916010575496822010-10-07T22:54:00.183-07:002010-10-07T22:54:00.183-07:00Abe said...
I hope now we can start now about lib...Abe said... <br />I hope now we can start now about liberating temples at mathura and kashi<br />October 5, 2010 8:26 AM<br />---------------------------<br />Not only Kashi and Mathura, we should actually start first with liberating Tejo Mahalaya(Taj Mahal), a Shiva Jyotirlinga temple forcibly appropriated by Shah Jahan. This is not a muslim religious place, it's a tomb and hence won't be subject to the Places of Worship Act 1993. Once you have a second instance of a Hindu religious place being converted to an Islamic structure, then the 1993 Worhsip act will become questionable / redundant and the case for Kashi and Mathura unstoppable.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05747142313022663686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-41405830493800384382010-10-06T07:32:28.549-07:002010-10-06T07:32:28.549-07:00Raghu : I wanted the pictures published not for th...Raghu : I wanted the pictures published not for the sensationalist value in them, but to let people have a possibly better informed opinion about whether it was a temple or, say, a king's cow shed. Just saying "there existed pillar bases" does not show what the purpose of those pillar bases had been. Similarly, some of the figurines are supposed to be just decorated humans, not religious.<br /><br /> Usually Professor Elst is very comprehensive in demolishing the left liberal cases, but on this particular issue there seem to be (from my layman-perspective) issues I can't find the answer to in his work.<br /><br />But I think I must stop on this thread, since already I have hogged too much of the comment space here; let me not take his generosity for granted.Sandeephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16876160384936501586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-44620930348377342202010-10-06T00:19:28.813-07:002010-10-06T00:19:28.813-07:00Now their side lost in the court, the secularist m...Now their side lost in the court, the secularist media found a new weapon to torture the Hindu side. They are saying that VHP,RSS and BJP's statement of plan to build a great temple at the site is "rubbing salt on the wound". Whose wound it is? How that wound happened?<br /><br />The real wound happened when Babar demolished the then Ram temple and constructed his masjid.And the modern masjidwallahs rubbed salt on the wound by not agreeing to this fact inspite of numerous evidence thrown on their face.<br /><br />Karan Thapar in a special 'Devil's advocate' program said the BJP's plans to build bhavya mandir is rubbing salt on the wound.Karan ji, your media has been rubbing salt on Hindu's wound since years and Hindus silently bore only out of their respect for Freedom of speech.Now stop crying or begging for mercy for ur Masjidwallahs.<br /><br />When Karan was showing his palm with his first two fingers attached at Arun Jaitley in a manner of asking a question, it really appeared as if he is begging for mercy for all the media on-salught on behalf of masjidwallahs on Hindus and now asking Hindus to build a small temple so that it wont hurt the masjidwallahs.<br /><br />When you media people get the chance u will kill the character, credibility and everything of the opposite side.If you are proved wrong, you still try to attack..or rarely..you beg. To shame with u all.CHAKRAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373484003658634324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-33498056301842441412010-10-06T00:07:57.760-07:002010-10-06T00:07:57.760-07:00Given below is the one of the paragraphs from Koen...Given below is the one of the paragraphs from Koenraad's book on Ayodhya :<br /><br />'The Pioneer (“What lies ahead”, 27 Aug. 2003) betrays the same attitude. It likewise acknowledges the ASI’s findings, it even rejects the allegations of bias and fabrication against the ASI, but then swiftly shifts the focus to the judicial dispute: “For, the ASI’s findings can scarcely be the sole determinant in finding light at the end of the Ayodhya tunnel.” So, it’s back to Court now with the message: “We were wrong, Your Honour, to deny the existence of the temple, but we plead you still don’t grant the Hindus the right to rebuild it.”<br /><br />just thought it is right occasion to remindCHAKRAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373484003658634324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-30700729628894067022010-10-05T21:00:23.759-07:002010-10-05T21:00:23.759-07:00@Sandeep,
ASI have done detailed research on the ...@Sandeep,<br /><br />ASI have done detailed research on the site and have given their opinion. Whats the point in Elst giving the picture of the structures. Do you think these pictures will out weight the report presented by ASI? <br /><br />These pictures will only make us more angry at best :) <br /><br />People like us are tempted to see those gory pictures, but in such scholarly research of Elst picture plays a small role.Raghavendra Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00080453089380134082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-31333969750076484752010-10-05T19:48:25.749-07:002010-10-05T19:48:25.749-07:00The battle is now in the SC. It is important that ...The battle is now in the SC. It is important that the VHP now brings in their own battery of experts to testify against the Waqk board. Why wasn’t Dr Elst employed as an expert witness. Surely, the VHP can take care of the expenses involved? Remember, the judges will be under a lot of pressure to overturn the verdict.<br /><br />Armchair intellectuals can also contribute by studying the judgment in detail (including the dissenting one by judge khan) apart from the critical ‘secular’ commentaries on the verdict. Then, build a iron cast argument and expose the secularists for once and all. All over, i see only an attitude of relaxation as if the judgment of the SC is a foregone conclusion. This is the old Hindu adage of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The secularists will come hard at us with new sophisticated yet sophistical arguments. But instead of getting ready for the mother of all intellectual engagements, a process of self congratulations is on, and speaking of appeasing minorities from such ignorant Hindus like Swapanda seems to be on the agendaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-4678722762552518302010-10-05T12:51:51.968-07:002010-10-05T12:51:51.968-07:00i think if these thinks[never ending judicial proc...i think if these thinks[never ending judicial process,partisan so called eminent historians,pseudo secularism]continued to happen,only an 'aggressive Hindutva'will remain answer.gkanyadyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11225348475582951202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-22400377538887871082010-10-05T10:09:19.629-07:002010-10-05T10:09:19.629-07:00Abe, the law of 1949 guarantees status quo to be m...Abe, the law of 1949 guarantees status quo to be maintained at kasi and mathura.Ayodhya was exception due to it's disputed status at that time.CHAKRAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373484003658634324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-40721885707759296672010-10-05T08:26:37.896-07:002010-10-05T08:26:37.896-07:00I hope now we can start now about liberating templ...I hope now we can start now about liberating temples at mathura and kashiSmileAbhihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14905165091527244344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-38206856555070661802010-10-05T07:42:18.825-07:002010-10-05T07:42:18.825-07:00I think if they allow the Mandir and Masjid to co-...I think if they allow the Mandir and Masjid to co-exist at the same site, the problem of communal violence will continue foreverCHAKRAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373484003658634324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-30918629545806493082010-10-05T05:25:36.825-07:002010-10-05T05:25:36.825-07:00Hindu Vision 2020 : I did read that, which is why ...Hindu Vision 2020 : I did read that, which is why I said "though you had taken care of issues like lime and mortar". The book still does not answer questions like the absence of pillars (as opposed to pillar bases), not carbon dating the bones and other specific questions I mentioned in my previous comment.<br /><br />As an aside, please don't mistake me : the reason I ask such pointed questions is that Prof. Elst is one of the few sources from where one can get serious historical ammunition to defend Hindus.Sandeephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16876160384936501586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-24409320377395969542010-10-05T03:58:27.911-07:002010-10-05T03:58:27.911-07:00Koenraad sir,
as usual it is very g...Koenraad sir,<br /> as usual it is very good post.thanks for the same.<br /><br />How do you feel about muslims getting a piece of the disputed site?CHAKRAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18373484003658634324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-75843497465441154342010-10-05T00:36:46.106-07:002010-10-05T00:36:46.106-07:00Romila Thapar herself was of the opinion that ther...Romila Thapar herself was of the opinion that there are references in the Vedas as to Hindus eating beef. So the presence of animal bones shouldn’t surprise her even if it surprises every one else.<br /><br />Her words are quoted as below :<br /><br />The controversy on my work involved some textbooks I had written for middle schools, where I had talked about the lives of Aryans as we knew it from the Vedic texts. I had mentioned, for instance, that the early Indians ate beef – the references in the Vedas are clear, and there is archaeological evidence for this.Bejhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09796305681561896747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-18132335434820310092010-10-05T00:35:46.324-07:002010-10-05T00:35:46.324-07:00Romila Thapar herself was of the opinion that ther...Romila Thapar herself was of the opinion that there are references in the Vedas as to Hindus eating beef. So the presence of animal bones shouldn’t surprise her even if it surprises every one else.<br /><br />Her words are quoted as below :<br /><br />The controversy on my work involved some textbooks I had written for middle schools, where I had talked about the lives of Aryans as we knew it from the Vedic texts. I had mentioned, for instance, that the early Indians ate beef – the references in the Vedas are clear, and there is archaeological evidence for this.<br /><br />CSBBejhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09796305681561896747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-36767599876498627692010-10-04T20:43:46.773-07:002010-10-04T20:43:46.773-07:00As for Waqf Board emissary Supriya Verma, she make...As for Waqf Board emissary Supriya Verma, she makes the most of the animal bones found at different layers: “If any shrine and a temple existed, how can anyone account for the animal bones?” As per the ASI findings, the site lay in ruins several times, circumstances in which animals may have made their home in it. Is she really an archaeologists that she doesn’t know how the strangest objects accumulate at sites of interest over the millennia? Or did she mean to say that the animals indicate a Muslim rather than a Hindu presence, with mosques as sanctuary for our four-legged brethren? It seems the anti-temple experts are clutching at straws in desperation.<br /><br />http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/finale/ch3.html<br /><br />@sandeep<br /><br />THis book was published in 2003, and should have been read there and then. Please read the full book. It answers all your questionsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-225439691187792902010-10-04T19:22:16.187-07:002010-10-04T19:22:16.187-07:00Thank you Dr.Koenraad Elst. You have analyzed the ...Thank you Dr.Koenraad Elst. You have analyzed the situation to perfection. Its sad that the Muslim waqf board got a piece of this cake which was highly unexpected. What satisfies me is ultimately the "Truth Prevailed" what ever may be the Honorable courts verdict. Thank you once again for throwing light on this issue.M V Bhakthahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08083241858323302553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6138082354348831474.post-72254063876297783072010-10-04T19:20:33.785-07:002010-10-04T19:20:33.785-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.M V Bhakthahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08083241858323302553noreply@blogger.com